Robert Juniper

Sandra McGrath Here with Robert Juniper, January the 15th, 1977, Balingup. I just want to start with sort of basically if you can tell me a bit about your background, where you came from, where you were born, where you were schooled.

Robert Juniper Well, I was born in Merredin, that's um a place on the uh wheatbelt that C. Y. O'Connor's pipeline passes through. And um six years old— Is it coming through, alright?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, yeah, it's on. Hold on. No, that's alright, no, no, wait. Go on, keep going. It's just that I'm getting closer to your, to your voice because you're looking this way, so your voice is going to be tossed this way. Go on.

Robert Juniper When I was about six years old, my father...

Sandra McGrath We'll get the sword out of there in a minute. It's going to be a noisy tape, anyway. Okay, when you were six?

Robert Juniper Well, um my father was um a welder and he was working on the second maintenance team that went through on the C. Y. O'Connor pipeline. And um he had the idea that, you know, as he was away from home for um long periods of a stretch, he um he would take his family with him, you know. And uh this is I'm I'm saying this because it's one of my earliest recollections of the Australian bush, and I still carry the images with me from from that particular time. We lived in a in a sort of uh community along the the railway line, and uh as uh um we children were all sort of preschool,

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Robert Juniper uh we could do that. And um

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Robert Juniper Interview with background noises. And and this is first sort of contact and probably most important contact with the Australian bush, and I still draw upon those sort of uh memories and images that I'd uh um had then as a child, in my work.

Sandra McGrath What sort of landscape is that?

Robert Juniper Well, it's um it's sort of semi-desert um in in parts with uh thin thin trees, rather like uh

Sandra McGrath Shh! Anthony, get out. Right now, we're doing a taping.

Child Oh, I want to have a drawing.

Sandra McGrath Don't come back in here, okay?

Child I can't even get the tempera and all my other drawing with that.

Sandra McGrath Semi-desert.

Robert Juniper with thin thin trees and um that sort of uh fairytale-like quality that you find in, say, a Fred McCubbin landscape, you know, that sort of space through the trees and the sunlight filtering through, beautiful flowers, and insects and, you know, that sort of thing.

Interviewer What effect did all the years in England have on your interest in Australian landscape?

Robert Juniper Well, uh I'd I'd never thought about being a a painter um when I was in England, and I went to uh art school there, because it was the—

Sandra McGrath When did you go to England? We haven't got you out of Merredin yet.

Robert Juniper Um yeah, all right. Well, my father was uh an Englishman and uh

Sandra McGrath And your mother?

Robert Juniper my mother was uh born in Greenbushes in Australia, and uh the old man um

Sandra McGrath You want me to give you some action here with the claw? There's a good claw marks on the back of the hand.

Interviewer That's Australian, is it?

Robert Juniper Um during the Depression, um my mother and father saved enough money to visit the old country, as they called it, and um they went off uh with my younger brother and I I went um over to England about a year after they did. And um during the Depression years um they saved enough money to uh go to England in uh sort of dribs and drabs, you know, and my mother and father uh went with my youngest brother, who was then just a a baby, and uh my um other brother and I followed on a year later. And um we uh were stranded there during the war, because, you know, when the war broke out, um civilian travel was uh curtailed, so we couldn't get back to Australia. So I spent the uh war years in England, and um

Interviewer How many brothers and sisters did you have?

Robert Juniper I I have um two brothers and one sister. Uh my my sister stayed uh behind here in Australia, because um as I say the the war um broke out and there was no um

Sandra McGrath How old were you in the war?

Robert Juniper Um I was um just uh 18 when the war finished. Just um I missed out on uh National Service because I was an Australian returning home, that's right. But um

Sandra McGrath Where did you go to school in England?

Robert Juniper I went to school um in a place called Beckenham, which is um just uh south of the London area, just outside the uh boundary of London. We spent most of the time in in uh Beckenham during the war, but uh when the V-2s started to uh arrive, my father said, "That's enough." So he uh shipped us all off to uh Cheshire. Spent uh about a year in the um in a farming uh situation in Cheshire, which was um enjoyable. But uh um Robert asked me, you know, how I felt about the Australian landscape and I I don't really think I had any idea about it except, you know, what I remembered as a child, you know, later on when I returned to Australia. Um I went to art school um

Sandra McGrath In England?

Robert Juniper in England, um Beckenham, Beckenham School of Art. Um In those days,

Sandra McGrath What happened then?

Robert Juniper well, um I I don't really remember anything any of my teachers told me, but the environment is uh terribly important, I think, you know. One gets into um into a situation where um you're surrounded by people uh doing things and and that that is the important thing about uh or the important thing that I remember about art school, anyway. It gave me a sort of a um a nudge in in the right or in in any direction. Uh I studied commercial art and industrial design. And uh when I fin—

Sandra McGrath What made you know you wanted to be an artist?

Robert Juniper Well, um my mother would have liked me to have gone to a technical school and and perhaps been an engineer or a doctor or, you know, something like one of the professions. Um I possibly would have uh been a good surgeon or an engineer because I'm um I'm inventive and I can do things with my hands. But anyway, they didn't have enough money um to um get me into that sort of thing, and uh it was um noticed that my highest marks at school were uh for drawing. And uh art work. Yes, we all we all... Yeah, we all came back. And then, but, uh, as I say, they were they were on on this, uh, farming property down in the southwest, and then... I went down there for a while, and, uh, um, [coughs] excuse me, I was, um, chopping trees down for to make a quid. And, um, I I spent probably about a a year down there. Then I thought I'd...

Sandra McGrath At this stage, were you were you totally trained as a commercial design commercial artist or design artist? Had you received your What did you receive, or not?

Robert Juniper No, I'd I'd, um, I cut it short before I got, um, um, a sort of qualification or certificate, or... I think because I'd I'd largely got bored with it, I don't know, or, you know, possibly, you know, due to the fact that I couldn't get out of the place quick enough. So I came back to Australia, and interrupted my studies and that.

Sandra McGrath But if someone had said to you, "What are you? What do you do?", what would you have replied then?

Robert Juniper commercial artist. And is that And you worked In fact, you worked then? Yes, I did. I I worked in a, um, when I decided to leave the farm and come up and try my luck in the, uh, big smoke, I I got a job, uh, with an, um, engraving firm, not photo engravers, they were called Gibneys, but they were photo engravers. And, um, I tried that for a while, and I got bored to death with, um, fashion drawings and, um, bargain- -basement stuff, you know. I I wanted something a bit more sort of creative, and and there didn't seem to be anything like that going here. Yeah, and I would I would have probably like to have got into the, um, field of poster work or something like that. Um, anyway, while I was there, I I met, uh, somebody who was very, uh, important. That was the the art director, uh, a man called John Lunghi. He was a, um, Swiss painter himself. Um, he, um, saw one of my paintings, um, that I'd I'd just done during the weekend, and he liked it. Uh, it was just, um, the place where I was living in in, uh, Perth. Uh, I just sat out in the garden one day and and, uh, painted the house across the street with some trees in front and somebody walking past. I suppose it was a sort of poetic picture. Anyway, he was enthusiastic about it, and, um, it sort of coincided with, uh, an exhibition of the, um, Perth Society of Artists, of, uh... Well, I think he was probably the, uh, the, um, president that year, anyway. He he included the picture in the exhibition. And, uh, it received, uh, favourable press and, um, and I was then introduced to, you know, the I suppose the dilettanti it was in those days. And they they, um, sort of gave me encouragement, you know. So I decided that, um, that I'd, um, be a painter, a Sunday painter. I got, uh, various jobs, you know, to, uh, keep me in bread and butter and rent. And, um, I was working for, um, a man called Ivan Jordanoff. Uh, he he was, uh, a Bulgarian who, um, came out to Australia and, uh, he was, um, somewhat an amateur architect. And I met him socially, and, um, he said, well, I was looking for a job. And I said, "Yeah." He said, "What can you do?" And I said, "Well, you know, anything you like." And, uh, he said, "Well, I'm I'm building a, I've designed a building, and I'm, um, subcontracting it. Would you be interested in, uh, working on it?" So I I, um, worked as a, um, not as a bricklayer, but, uh, I made all the walls of this building for him. It doesn't matter if I ramble on like this, does it? You know, because you'll, you know, piece it together. Um, and his wife was, um, a sculptress, and I showed them some of my work, and they liked it very much. And they they suggested we have a joint exhibition, which we did.

Sandra McGrath Who was that?

Robert Juniper Uh, this is, um, Pat Jordanoff, the the, uh... the wife of... She was the one who was the sculptress? Yeah.

Sandra McGrath What was that exhibition like?

Robert Juniper Um, well, it was a sort of, um, uh, a hotchpotch of, uh, influences, I I suppose, in those days. Um, Paul Klee, in particular, um, perhaps a dash of Matisse, a little bit of Kokoschka, and, um, you know, I was always interested in in patina and, uh, and colour, um, particularly so. This is why I suppose I was, um, I had to acknowledge Paul Klee as probably my my biggest influence, particularly in those days. And, uh...

Sandra McGrath Could Kokoschka have been living in London when you were there? Uh...

Robert Juniper I don't know whether he was in in London, but I saw, you know, plenty of his work. And I, you know, I loved the the sort of way he put paint on. Soutine I I liked very much too. And while while you were out of the room, I, um, I was telling Robert that, uh, we had some eccentrics at the art school that I went to. One of them, in particular, a chap called Grünspan. I think he was a crook, you know. He, uh, I know he was arrested once during the war for, um, uh, impersonating a a doctor during an air raid, and he'd attended somebody's, um, sort of injuries, and, you know, it was found out he was was not a doctor, and I think he was either put in jail or fined. But anyway, beside the point. Um, he he used to have access to, um, private collections, and he used to bring, um, paintings to the school and hang them in the, uh, the the main sort of entranceway. Um, painters like Soutine was one. I remember the first Soutine I ever saw was at the art school, and, uh, it was an, you know, absolutely stunning painting. It was, um, about, um, four times life-sized painting of a a gutted rabbit on a plate, you know, and it was so so rich in in the uh, the quality of the paint, you know. It was it left a a tremendous impression. He used to bring painters like, uh, Sisley and, uh, Monet, and God knows where he got them, whether he stole them or took them back.

Sandra McGrath Real paintings? Real ones, yeah. I wonder where he got them? God knows.

Robert Juniper But, you know, how... You were too nervous to ask him? Yeah. Too polite. Mm. Anyway, what was I talking about before I sidetracked then?

Sandra McGrath I wanted What was the subject matter of the first exhibition generally, what was, how would you describe...

Robert Juniper Um, well, it was, um, it was, um, um, landscape, uh, portraiture, um, figure, uh, composition, figures in, um, urban landscape. You know, this is before I sort of really, uh, got out into the open sort of country. Uh, and I I think, uh, then I started to exhibit more or less regularly, uh, every year. Rose Skinner, um, came on the scene about, uh, after I'd had about three exhibitions, I think. In those days, there wasn't even a gallery, proper exhibiting gallery, in Perth. The place, um, where I had my first exhibition was in the in, um, the, uh, Adult Education, uh, Education rooms, uh, above a library, you know, and and we were actually hanging pictures on curtains, you know. That was the sort of gallery scene. The only other, um, place that, um, artists exhibited was in, uh, Newspaper House. They had a small room upstairs. When, um, Rose Skinner came back from wherever she'd been, I think it was, you know, probably Europe, um, she, um, her husband built her a gallery, because that's what, you know, she wanted to do. And and that was the first sort of, um, gallery of any quality in in Perth. And she took me under her wing, and I exhibited with her every year since about 1954, I think, somewhere around there.

Sandra McGrath How old were you when you had that first exhibition? Uh, 20...

Robert Juniper 21. When were you born, Robert? 1929.

Sandra McGrath What month? I'm 48 now. January, this this month. Just had a Just had a birthday. [laughs] Um, so at 21 you had, that was 19... that was your first exhibition? Mm. And three exhibitions later, Rose Skinner picked you up, right? Mhm.

Robert Juniper So that was And the headway you made at your first exhibition was fair? Three years? Yeah. I forget when it was, but if you, you know, if you want these dates, I can sort of send them on to you if it's important.

Sandra McGrath Um... What were you try What do you think you were trying to do in that? Or what do you think your your works are trying to do? What do you think you're you you've found something? What did you do?

Robert Juniper Now? Yeah. Well, The energy... I don't know, um, it's hard to say, isn't it? I suppose all all painters paint their own self-portrait in some sort of way, symbolically, and I suppose that's what I'm, um, expressing. It it's, um, when if I if I if I analyze my work, what I get from it is a is a feeling of, uh, solitariness and, uh, like that. It's not I don't mean loneliness, because I'm a gregarious person and I'm never lonely, but I I still feel sort of alone. I I don't know whether that makes sense, but, uh, I'm attracted to, um, the sort of more open country, the desert, um, particularly places that, uh, have been inhabited once and deserted. And I like to I like to use the, uh, um, the sort of little artefacts and things that people leave behind after, you know, the say a gold mining town, for instance, that has ceased to function. Plenty of those in the sort of area that I like to work in. Um, they packed up about 50 years ago, and some of them have completely disappeared. There's no buildings there at all. But you have, um, the feeling that, uh, the landscape has been slightly sort of organised by people, and they've left some trace of themselves behind in this in the shape of, uh, um, house foundations or, you know, footpaths laid out, bits of broken tile, ubiquitous bottle, and that sort of thing. And these are the that...

Sandra McGrath Do you actually go out and look for such places, or...? Yes, I do. Yeah, and, um,

Robert Juniper this is I I suppose, um, I was talking earlier on about being very depressed about the Australian landscape when I came back, and that was a particular sort of landscape down in the southwest of Western Australia, which I've never really, um, been attracted to. Um, I suppose I, you know, suddenly saw the whole thing again when I did, uh, actually take a trip to the goldfields. And then I I thought, you know, this is my territory, and I felt...

Sandra McGrath Take a trip to which goldfields? Well, um, Kalgoorlie,

Robert Juniper and, uh, then across to, uh, Cue, which is a ghost town, um, a place called Nannine, um, where nobody lives. It's quite extraordinary. I remember...

Sandra McGrath Do you think that this Western, uh, landscape thing is a West Coast landscape? I mean, you're the one who is the only one who has done it, so to speak. What do you think its basic characteristics are? Is it all that is that whole thing of being on the edge of the Indian Ocean and separated by huge deserts?

Robert Juniper Well, I I find, you know, a lot of, um, Australian landscape, particularly on the, um, the the populated rim, is the same, you know. I I'm looking out of the window here now, and that, um, hill across there could be exactly, um, in the southwest of Western Australia. You know, it's just the same sort of, um, um, trees, um, the leached-out colour when the sun gets on it, lot of red in the in the green, with, um, a a grey-green sort of, um, thing. The sort of, um, I I've never been, um, into the, uh, goldfields of, uh, New South Wales or or any other place in in Australia, so I don't I can't compare. But the the goldfields, um, or desert landscape is, um, is quite different. Um, it's it's got, uh, um, it's got a harshness about it, um, juxtaposed with, um, very soft and delicate wildflowers, which, you know, is is a nice sort of, um, contradiction in a way. You know, you've got this hard, red earth, and and then when it rains, um, the whole place is covered with, uh, everlastings or something like that, you know, which are very soft and delicate, you know. It's sort of one, you know, marvels at the way they can actually, sort of, push their way out of the ground, you know. ground, you know. And then, um, the trees are thinner, the the, um, um, they're stunted, uh, hardly there at all, and, um... in, say, a place like the Stirling Ranges, um, it's it's like going into another world, you know, the the, um, the fauna, um, is sort of pretty much the same, but the the flora, um, adopts a sort of, um, almost like an alien

Robert Juniper I do, yeah.

Sandra McGrath For what reason?

Robert Juniper Um little, little coloured markers, I think, [laughs] or focal points, you know. And that's the the sort of feeling that one has about the landscape, that um or at least the the feeling that I want to express is that it's there, it's sort of timeless, um and we just pass through it, you know.

Interviewer Do you uh merge reality with the abstract?

Robert Juniper Yes. At least I think so. Um I went through quite an abstract uh period, which wasn't me. Uh and I I suppose like a lot of other Australian painters that latched onto the Abstract Expressionists, which is, you know, an American uh movement, Willem de Kooning, who he was one painter that I was particularly interested in because he had the qualities that uh uh of the um of the patina of paint, you know, the same sort of thing as Soutine, for instance.

Sandra McGrath How How do you What do you What do you call the patina of paint? What do you mean by... ...what are you saying about that?

Robert Juniper Well, just just the the the quality, um it's it's hard to hard to describe um the feeling that uh it's um I don't really know. I It's only a feeling that I I have about it. Um I For instance, um

Sandra McGrath Well, patina can be anything. It can be dull, shiny, flat, glossy.

Robert Juniper Yes, I'm perhaps using the wrong the the wrong word. I should have used the quality, um quality uh more than patina, I think. Um for instance, um the Soutine that I was talking about earlier on had um a marvellous sort of uh fleshiness about it, you know. The rabbit was so meaty-looking and and it was done with with sort of an underpaint with a bit of glaze over the top, you know, and had that the sort of thing that um um one finds in um Goya, you know, if you enlarge uh say the fur hem on a coat or something, that that to me has the same sort of uh quality that a Soutine has or a Willem de Kooning on a on a sort of large scale. Um the sort of um richness that Rembrandt gets in his sort of over-glazing, the sort of thing that William Dobell did, too.

Sandra McGrath Do you use that, you know, you use glazes, too?

Robert Juniper Um, not not uh not glossy uh glazes. I I use um a a sort of a a textured background.

Sandra McGrath And what What What do you call a textured background?

Robert Juniper Well, I I mix um um a plaster or some inert sort of powder into a plastic paint to give it more body, so that I can manipulate it in in a more sort of plastic way.

Sandra McGrath So you've got your canvas and you mix, now tell me what you mix. You mix plaster...

Robert Juniper I mix a um a plaster with with acrylic paint. And I I generally apply that to the canvas with uh a spatula.

Sandra McGrath Giving it a sort of thick surface.

Robert Juniper Yeah. Yeah.

Sandra McGrath How thick do you find...

Robert Juniper Well, not terribly thick, you know, I I don't I don't like...

Sandra McGrath ...so you can glide in it sort of.

Robert Juniper Yeah, so I can I can sort of etch lines and and uh um you know, get little bits of uh crumbly texture and and things like that. I try to imitate actually the the feeling of the of the ground and and with me, the landscape. And I like my paintings to look uh old, so um I I strive to get them to look as though they've been exposed to a a millennium of time, and so I just uh work over and over the surface, so that it actually um... by um glazing over the the paint. I apply um acrylic first of all, because um I like acrylics because I like to um work over the top of other colours, uh and and and work fairly quickly, so um rather than hang around waiting for an oil surface to dry, I use acrylic, which dries in 20 minutes or so, and I can sort of overpaint that. And then um and because acrylic is not very accurate in in colour, you know, it dries differently to what it looks when it's wet, um I I um use oil paint over the top of that to, you know, to adjust the nuances of the of the tones and things that might have gone haywire with the acrylic. Um, no. It's uh it's I I don't varnish. I I use um uh thin washes of turpentine, which uh if I glaze over it, which um is is matt. And I don't particularly like the uh the glaze, but I I like a sort of uh dry-looking surface. Well, uh what I'm talking about uh putting thin um washes of colour over other colours, that's what I'm talking about by glaze, not not not as a glossy sort of thing.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I see. You don't really mean a glaze, what you mean by that is a wash...

Robert Juniper No, no. A wash of of coloured uh a very thin wash of paint over another colour to alter the the appearance of it.

Interviewer Where did you, being so isolated in WA, your techniques, did you work all these out yourself?

Robert Juniper Yes.

Interviewer You didn't have opportunities to discuss with other painters?

Robert Juniper Um, a little, but not not terribly much, you know.

Interviewer Did you ever worry about your isolation?

Robert Juniper I used to. I used to a great deal, and um you know, I thought uh that I should be somewhere else, you know, and not not I I didn't uh ever think about uh um coming to live in Sydney, although, you know, that that was the, you know, seemed to be the centre of the art scene.

Interviewer Did it give you an inferiority complex?

Robert Juniper Um, I I think um it did for a while. Um I'm I'm talking now um about the time, say, when Robert Hughes was the uh art critic here. And um from a distance, it looked as though um, you know, when he was, say, reviewing an exhibition that that perhaps I'd um was included in, that um his uh his crits would read like a a sort of a hit parade of of his sort of mates that he, you know, was involved with. But uh to balance that, he had to criticise somebody, so he picked on somebody he didn't know, and it was generally me [laughs].

Sandra McGrath Well, that's another feeling! [laughs]

Interviewer What about the desert painters of America? Do you have any interest in them?

Robert Juniper Um, not really, no. I I I think I'm thoroughly sort of absorbed in in my own sort of environment.

Interviewer What about How much How great is your interest in music?

Robert Juniper Very much. I I have it uh going all the time when I'm working. Well, um I used to um I used to play a lot of opera. Matter of fact, I had aspirations of being an opera singer at one stage. Yes, well I, you know, it was my great love in life, and um uh I used to go to the library and read librettos and uh play the uh recordings that I'd bought, and and I I could understand the whole um libretto of an opera. Or I I knew it off by heart in a foreign language that I didn't speak, you know, and because I I used to sort of follow the score and things. I did at one stage go and have uh some singing lessons, and uh the uh singing teacher told me that I could make a career out of my voice, but, he said, 'Good voice is a tuppence a bunch, you have to be a musician as well.' And I just didn't have the discipline to to learn music. And also, I was very shy about uh getting up and singing in front of people, and that would be another paralysing thing as far as I'm concerned. My ear? Um, I don't know. I I often sort of uh

Interviewer Do you use your ear in your in your painting?

Robert Juniper um associate uh paintings with pieces of music, you know.

Interviewer Because out there it must be very silent, Robert.

Robert Juniper It has a music uh, it has a music of its own, a ghost town. It really is um, you know, ghost is a very good word because it it is a haunted place. There's no doubt about that. Whether you believe in [laughs] whether you believe in in the actual sort of uh presence of ghosts or not, you you know, the the the wind sort of uh howling through and low scrub and gravestones and things, and it's all really so... And and, you know, you it's quite a moving and salutary experience to stand by a a gravestone out there and and and um and look at the horizon, you know, all around, and there is terrible sense of loneliness, mm.

Interviewer Thing I remember is the difference between English landscape and Australian. The Australian bush has quite a different sound.

Robert Juniper And birds too, you know, it's never silent, you know, there's always...

Interviewer It's a sort of dry, crisp sound.

Robert Juniper Yeah, that's right, yeah. Mm.

Interviewer Because you've got soft grass and you've got...

Robert Juniper Yeah. I um I went on a trip to Japan, and uh it was like going um back into a very ordered landscape, you know, because there's not a leaf out of place there. And um strangely enough, the effect that it had on me was to see my own landscape very sharply and clearly, you know, so it it was it was a very good sort of move to go to Japan. And um only about four weeks. And I loved the Japanese landscape, too, and and and it because it has has this sort of feeling of age about it, which I'm I'm very sort of fond of. And and I I like uh decay and archaeology and that sort of thing, you know, I try to arrive at these sort of elements in my pictures. And I did do a series of paintings on on Jap- on Japanese landscape, not as landscape, but the the textures in the landscape, like moss on rocks and uh, you know. Um, I I was pleased with them and um and they had all sold, so [chuckles] I dare say, you know, one could say it was... And and uh also um it was refreshing, too, because um it was winter when I went to Japan, and and uh when I I came back and I painted all these blues and greens and and grey and snow and things, and and the critic on The West Australian, you know, put the headline on on the in write-up of the exhibition, 'Juniper Feels the Chill of Japan' [laughs]. And it was, you know, this sort of contrast between very hot landscape and and this sort of cool...

Sandra McGrath Do you paint in the country, in the countryside?

Robert Juniper No, I don't.

Sandra McGrath Do you do a lot of drawing?

Robert Juniper Uh, I do a lot of drawing, mm.

Interviewer The actual physical act of going out into the into the scrub, is this a planned thing?

Robert Juniper Yes, um...

Sandra McGrath Do you take photographs? What do you do?

Robert Juniper I I do, yeah, I do take photographs, yeah. No, I take uh Well, look, certainly, and um uh absorb um impressions and and and feelings. My My paintings are probably about more about the feeling of the place rather than the the appearance of it, although, you know, um because it is abstracted. It's not not a um a representational sort of scene about the landscape. Uh, what was I Uh, oh yeah, drawings. I I make sketches, and and photographs, too, just remind me of... And I use a camera like a notebook, you know, because it's uh generally I'm travelling with somebody and it's uh um it was sort of uh if I were travelling, say, with my children or uh family, uh it'd be a sort of more more of a courtesy thing to do not to keep them hanging around in the sun while I sat down and painted a picture.

Sandra McGrath Did you Have you ever thought of coming to uh leaving Perth and coming to Sydney, to this part of the world, or Melbourne?

Robert Juniper Um, no. Uh it I'm afraid it doesn't sort of attract me. I don't like cities at all, and uh I I would imagine uh the only reason that that one would come to New South Wales is because it's probably nearer to a a sort of more dynamic metropolis. But uh, see, for instance... See, for instance, I—I had to fly over to Melbourne to see the, um, Modern Masters in Australia because it just didn't make our neck of the woods, being the last outpost of the Empire. No, it wasn't air-conditioned. I flew myself on the Chinese exhibition as well.

Interviewer a success out of painting, in the business of it?

Robert Juniper Well, yes, um, because I—I don't have a job, and it's painting. My—my sole income is from painting. It could be, uh—um, I—I could be, um, better off, I think, financially, but I'm lazy and I have no ambitions to be wealthy. Well, I say I could be better off because there's always demand for my work, um, or seems to be, and, um, and I just don't—don't keep up with it.

Sandra McGrath What do you think are your four best pictures you've ever painted?

Robert Juniper Oh, well, um, that's—that's a really tough one. It's strange, in a way, too, because—

Interviewer You don't have to use the word "favourite".

Robert Juniper Ah, favourite.

Sandra McGrath Can't be that hard. [laughs]

Robert Juniper Well, one, um, would be, um... When I say "favourite", it's difficult now, you know, getting tied up with sentimentality, but, uh... I've got one at home, um, that, um, is, uh, a sort of a whimsical painting. And—and, you know, I don't like to take things too seriously. I like to be, uh, frivolous in—in a serious way, um, and, I like to paint sort of like that. Um, something with a little bit of humor in it. Like, um, I remember saying to Laurie Thomas once, you know, I—I like witty paintings, and he said, "What do you mean?" And I said, "Well, you know, like, um, Bruegel's Icarus falling into the sea, you know what I mean, with men ploughing, it's got nothing to do with Icarus at all, you know, it's a man ploughing. It was a beautiful landscape, and right down in the—in the bottom right-hand corner, there's little legs sticking out of the water, just a splash, you know.

Interviewer No, it's not the little man falling, it's actually legs?

Robert Juniper No, it's actually splashing into the water, you know, and all you can see is this old plough, and—and I said to Laurie, that's what I mean, and Laurie came and looked at one of my pictures once, and—and there was this vast landscape, and down in, uh, in—in the middle were two lovers embracing, and he said, "Is that the splash, Robert?" [laughter] But anyway, to get back to my favourite paintings, I don't know, um, I—I don't really separate them, you know, it's hard to say, um... I—I seem to think there's a continual, continuous sort of theme, you know. And even with my sculpture, I—I've, uh—I—I make, um, um, very big pieces of sculpture in steel, um, bolted together because physically it would be, uh, impossible to move them once they're, uh, put in—in place, except with a crane. But, um, I— I see my paintings as sort of an extension—my—my sculptures as—as an extension of my paintings, you know, because they're the same sort of things, except probably a bit more tangible, because I go out into the desert and I collect these bits of steel that have been left behind as sort of debris from, you know, gold mines and, you know, whatever. And I reassemble them into organic, plant-like forms to—so that they, um, keep their identity as, you know, pieces of steel, but I make them into into leaves and stems and things, which, you know, I—I really would like to to do it on the spot, you know, and go to, say, um, a deserted gold mine and reorganise the—the—the junk into into something like that and just leave it there as a—that's that's getting sort of more like a conceptual thing, you know. It might be good fun to do it. Do you miss, uh, your old paintings? I do, yes. And—and I get very attached to paintings, and—and it's—it's really sometimes like pulling teeth to, you know, let them go. Do you have a feeling the Well, yeah, one always, um, aspires to that, I think.

Interviewer What—what's the environment like that you live in?

Robert Juniper What, you mean as a—as a village?

Interviewer Bush?

Robert Juniper Uh, well, it's, um—it's out of the city, um, about 18 miles, but, um, surrounded, surrounded by bush, um, which unfortunately is becoming more and more sort of, uh, like suburbia now, but I—I retain a fair bit of bush around. But, uh, I—I live, um, very near, um, a beautiful river valley that, um, I—I use as a sort of, uh, um, meditation place, and I—I feel, you know, I need a fix every, you know, say, twice a week, and get in the car and drive down into this, uh, beautiful valley. There—there are fish there and wildlife, and it's quiet. It's been sort of, uh, um, knocked about a bit by the Public Works Department. They've, um, put a water pipe—a dam, and a water pipe through it, so progress, I suppose. Um, I—I'd like to, uh, drive into the, uh, country as often as I can, and it's not far away.

Interviewer And your actual house has a picture window looking out to the bush, and...?

Robert Juniper It's, um, my—my house is, uh...

Sandra McGrath Want me to take some photographs?

Robert Juniper Yeah, I'd like to, yeah.

Interviewer Can't do the other one, wouldn't get all in the doors.

Robert Juniper Yeah, um, my house is, uh—is got a one wall that is complete—completely glass, right up to the ceiling, 18 feet.

Sandra McGrath Did you build your own house, or design...?

Robert Juniper I—I built—I—I built the, um, the first house, and the studio I designed, and, um, I had, uh, subcontractors to help building.

Interviewer Do you paint within the living area? Yes. Do you like to look at your paintings as you're working on them?

Robert Juniper Yeah, I do. Because I—I—I work on sometimes about as—as many as six paintings at once. And, um, I, you know, I stop working on it to, um, approach it again with fresh eyes, and you know, sort of go out and come back, and then walk through, and then...

Interviewer Did you ever get up at night to go and look?

Robert Juniper I—I sometimes do, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Do you have sort of, ah, what's your working pattern? How do you—do you work every day of the week, or in bursts, or...?

Robert Juniper Very—very arbitrary, in—in bursts mostly. Some—some days, you know, um, I don't do anything except sit around, listen to music, read, go out, um, into the bush with the dogs, you know, and sort of that.

Interviewer Do you get periods of passion when you really get stuck into it?

Robert Juniper Yeah. Yeah, they work at—at a furious rate. Well, um, sometimes for—for weeks, you know.

Sandra McGrath Does your emotional life, uh, dictate anything about your work?

Robert Juniper Um, I suppose it does, but not that I'm...

Sandra McGrath Do you paint through it, or over it, or...?

Robert Juniper Uh, over it, I think, you know. I'm—I'm, uh, fairly controlled person. Um, I—I do like calm, but I can work in—in the most appalling sort of conditions, and I...

Sandra McGrath Can you work with your children playing around you?

Robert Juniper Yeah, sure. Yeah, I don't—I don't, you know, I—I talk to—I talk to people when I'm working and that. That it's—it's when a painting's going well that I can work like that. But when it's going badly, um, you know, the cat better get out of the way, you know. [laughter] I mean that's that. But, uh, I'm—I'm used to, um, working in absolute chaos because, um, you know, I've always worked, um, in the domestic situation, um, with kids, you know, and cats and dogs and, you know, and I—I even, um, have paintings that, uh, that they've participated in, you know. Um, my—my daughter when she was, uh—she's now 20, but when she was a little girl of about three, um, I was, um, working on a picture, and I was called to the telephone. And when I came back, um, this, um, uh, delicate arrangement of colours was—um, talk about Blue Poles, these were burnt umber poles. She'd just got an inch brush and—and—and drew a fence right across it, you know. And, um, she, um, put her arm in some red paint and—and put it on the surface of the painting once, and it was so perfectly positioned that I left it there. That—that one's now in the collection of the, um, West Australian Art Gallery. I—I sort of embellished it a little bit, but there—there was that. Um, one that I sent to Adelaide had a—a cat footprint, um, in it, which was such a beautiful gesture that, uh, I couldn't bear to take it out. I had—I'd put a painting down on the floor with a—a great big, um, green swamp thing, that is, you know, and, um, there it was, just getting nice and tacky, and, uh, I—I had my back turned for a minute, and the cat took off across the painting, [makes sound] straight through this. [gasp] And it was, you know, looking, this beautiful sort of, um, oriental sort of calligraphy sort of thing, so I left it. But, um, as—as for... It's in Sydney somewhere. [laughs]

Interviewer Do you—are you a follower of mateship?

Robert Juniper Mateship? Um, I—I have, uh, um, a brother, uh, in George Haynes, that's about as far as it goes. I'm—I'm not not a, um—I'm—I'm not very orientated towards males. I—I get on much better with, uh, women. I don't, uh, um, I don't sort of, uh, follow any sport, or...

Sandra McGrath Do you have any hobby or outside—is there any other thing that you have that you do, so to say at all?

Robert Juniper No, I—I don't, uh...

Sandra McGrath You don't play golf?

Robert Juniper [laughs] No. I play pool, um, I look at the stars through my astronomical telescope, and so... I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a hobby, uh, or that I was an—an amateur astronomer, but, uh, I just, uh...

Sandra McGrath Do you know what you're looking at?

Robert Juniper Yeah, I—I sort of have star charts and things like that. You asked me earlier on if I'd, um, look at my emotional life, um, or—or whether I worked over that, and I think I do, so...

Sandra McGrath And when your marriage was breaking up, did you have to do—was there anything distressful in your pictures?

Robert Juniper Yeah, I went through a depressed sort of, um, period, but, uh, I don't think it had any adverse effect on my pictures. As a matter of fact, I think, um, thinking about it, you know, um, I might have sort of, uh, created a—a little sort of escape environment in—in my paintings, you know, sort of. I like to think of my paintings as being sort of happy things, and I—I don't, um, don't sort of recall any miserable sort of bits in them. Sometimes the colours get a bit sort of, um, heavy, but, uh, that's as far as it goes.

Interviewer What do you think the purpose of painting is, if there is one?

Robert Juniper I don't—I don't really know. Decoration. I know it's a dirty word, and, um, one that, um, you know, uh, in Australia, in particular, was one that, uh, I was accused of being decorative was the—was a was the worst thing that one could be. But, uh, it—it must be, um, for some sort of thing like that, otherwise artists wouldn't be bothered, um, framing them and—and painting them on rectangular um, areas, you know, that, um, are obviously designed to go on walls. And I don't mean that in—I don't mean decoration in—in that sort of derogatory way, but, uh... People, you know, have—uh, have always put pictures or images, um, where they live, you know. I—I—I really can't say what the purpose is. I—I really don't know why I paint, because sometimes I don't even like doing it. It's sort of a—a compulsion, or maybe it's the only thing that you the only time you feel as though you're, uh, real, or because it's the thing you do best, so you have to do it.

Sandra McGrath Do you think that the artist has a sort of unique slot in sort of social sensitivity?

Robert Juniper Well, I've never—I've never felt that, because I'm—I'm, uh—no no sort of, um, issue or issues person or crusader about anything. I'm not trying to get across any social message. And, uh, and I—I'm just merely concerned with writing poetry about how I feel about my... Not—not even my environment, but a certain part of my environment. And I don't think artists are special people or should be regarded as such. I was talking to Geraldine last night about this too. Artists, er, should be invisible, like actors. It's pretty, pretty impossible, though. That's what this is all about, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath What do you mean, when you say an artist should be invisible?

Robert Juniper Well, the only thing important about the artist is what he produces and not not him as a personality.

Sandra McGrath That's your opinion?

Robert Juniper Yeah.