Richard Dunn

Interviewer Okay. Well, that's a good idea. Close the door, then I'll just make sure it's actually recording. Um, I also want to sort of set the whole book in perspective.

Jeffrey Makin I think we ought to start with that question about art and life, if you want to address it at all.

Interviewer Yeah, it's a good two... Brilliant, Jeff, would you go...? Yes, start for us.

Jeffrey Makin Um, see, so what I what I said is that I think with um with Brett, he's been written about in such a way that um his art has been interpreted through his life, but I also think that uh it's difficult to separate the aspects of his life and his art, because one has affected the other, and I think that has to be uh said positively and negatively. It really has to be taken into account. Um, I don't particularly want to go on with with views about that at this stage. I think that what um Bob Hughes said immediately after he died, and I don't know whether you've heard that. Interviewer: I was away, what did he say? Jeffrey Makin: Yeah. I think Bob's Bob's view was that um Brett's art dropped off in the early '70s, beginning of the '70s, and he really wasn't making art after that. Um, but I suppose uh it would be best to speak with... Interviewer: I'm very close with Bob. Jeffrey Makin: Yeah, with Bob, about that, I mean because I mean he certainly said in public the only insightful things that he said that were said I think about that time about Brett. Um, and I I read um... Interviewer: He certainly said the only critical ones. [laughs] Jeffrey Makin: Well, yes, the only critical ones, but they were fair. I mean Brett um Bob was a Bob was a good friend, and he was I think a loyal friend of Brett's, but um so I don't think there was any malice at all in uh in what what Bob said, and I think I would have to count myself in the same um Interviewer: Category? Jeffrey Makin: category. Um, Brett was a very close friend, and he I I I guess at a at a certain time, and it's it's funny because there are retractions about this now that everyone was a friend of Brett in the '60s. [laughs] But I I think I was probably about as close as you could get to Brett, um up until the time he was in New York. In fact, during the time he was in New York. Interviewer: Even during the time in New York? Jeffrey Makin: Yes, so I stayed with him for for for some weeks in New York at the Chelsea. Um, but it uh it it stopped after he came back to Australia, and although I came back um I came back a little later, and I saw him here, and I think when he when he was working on, oh he had just finished painting The Rock. And uh and I saw him in in the street, he was driving past and said, "Come and have a look at this studio." So we went down and we had to... Interviewer: In the gas... Jeffrey Makin: We had to in the gasworks, and had to warm it up and so on, but um his view was I think that that uh what I was doing, which I was making abstract paintings at that time, but that was a sort of decorative thing and that he couldn't see it, I mean, he took a very narrow view. And yet, um, you know, curiously, he's the person who introduced me to to Barnett Newman, so it wasn't as if he was, you know, completely unaware of of what's so much better abstract painting, but he took a very sort of narrow view. And I think that um at a certain time, and I think it really was New York, um he changed quite a bit, and not not particularly for the better, and that was probably, you know, it may very well be simply drug-related. But I think he was um... Interviewer: Chelsea's where he started on the drugs, pretty well. Jeffrey Makin: Well, that's where it was, and uh it it you know, it went like wildfire, you know, in London. But uh I don't believe Hughes had ever been a part of it at all. Interviewer: No, no, no. Jeffrey Makin: No, it's... So, I knew him very, very, very well, and I would see him four, you know, three or four times a week. Um, and certainly I mean we would go out and back and draw and talk findings, but but uh there was never a hint of anything, anything more sinister, you know, at all. And uh it certainly uh it certainly got onto hard drugs uh at the Chelsea. But I think he changed quite a lot, and that the, you know, his one one of the things that I uh felt when I read the thing that Colin Lanceley wrote in in uh Art Monthly and you read that, I mean I I felt it was the the the sorriest obituary that I've ever read. I mean, it was appalling. Um, that he didn't care for the person and didn't really acknowledge, and I really wondered why he bothered. Um, because I felt that uh one of the things that was left out was that Brett was an extremely generous person, a very nice person, I don't think he had a mean bone in his body. Um, and that aspect made him also a vulnerable person. He was a vulnerable person, he wasn't a tough guy. And um some of those things that happened later are are to an extent a result of of of that. I don't know whether you'd say he's sensitive or... Interviewer: Mmm. Jeffrey Makin: Um, but I think there are two things that were that worked against him, and and one one is a certain vulnerability, but he was also um you know, a bit of a cowboy. [laughs] Um...

Interviewer What sense did you mean that, cowboy? Jeffrey Makin: Oh, well,

Jeffrey Makin um, he took opportunities and he would sort of play, you know, he'd play a kind of game, and uh and uh was person, and uh um, there was a lot of theatre involved in that, and... Interviewer: A lot of theatre in him. Jeffrey Makin: There's a lot of theatre in him, and there's a lot of bullshit, too, in that. And uh, you know, if you could get away with the bullshit, he would, and if you got caught out, well, you know, that's that's the punt. But uh, he was he would certainly try it on with people, and I think if uh people swallowed that and... I'm you know, I may I'm rambling a little bit, but in a in a way, I felt that uh when he came back here, that too many people swallowed the bullshit. Nobody really, you know, I didn't...

Interviewer Never really no one ever really pulled him up. Jeffrey Makin: No, nobody tested him. Every test... Well, he

Jeffrey Makin he got tested a little bit in London. And uh I mean the relationship I think that that that that that Brett uh would appreciate was a more combative one, and um certainly we had we had a good relationship, it was very very strong, but also um you know, he'd ask questions, and I'd ask questions, and I think that's a that's the fair basis for him, whereas I think with a lot of soft tea, nobody really challenged him, and and that didn't help either. He really should have been challenged early on. Um, in in um... It's a very big story. I mean, oh it's it's curious, because as I say, he was so...

Interviewer Let's not start with the Chelsea, you know, that or have a... Let's go backwards, actually, let's start... Jeffrey Makin: Well, I think you'd have you would have to end with the Chelsea. Interviewer: Yeah. Jeffrey Makin: But um

Jeffrey Makin I met him in in I think '65 or '66 um when he was here and I knew he had a house at at Whale at Whale Beach, down at the harbour, which had a sort of garage, which was like a like a granny flat, and uh a friend of mine stayed there and I he was he was working there and I came down to meet him. And I went to London in '66 and um and saw him there, and he he became uh he was a so very close friend. And there were, you know, a number of people I knew in London at the at the time who I who I was friendly with, who he was, you know, before, who was um Leonard Hessing, who he was friendly with, Bob Hughes, Colin I really didn't know before and I think I met Col properly through Brett, but Brett really didn't see much of Colin. Wasn't a close friend really.

Interviewer Who did he see in London besides yourself?

Jeffrey Makin Um, on a very I mean, he would see he he would see Leonard, he would see Bob, um he cut off from a lot of people. A lot of the people who he went was friendly with when he went to London, when he first went to London, he'd uh he was cut off from.

Interviewer Why do you think he did that?

Jeffrey Makin I don't know that he did it.

Interviewer They did it.

Jeffrey Makin Well, there was the difference of um I think there was they were very competitive, I mean, the people who... I mean, he spoke about a lot of these people, people like Vernon Treweeke, um Roland Schlicht, um...

Interviewer Well, they all were there as well.

Jeffrey Makin Michael Johnson. There are a number of people. Now, I didn't meet... I would hear about this, cuz Brett would talk about these people a lot. Some of whom I've never met. I don't know that I've ever met Roland Schlicht. Um, Tony McGillick, I met here.

Interviewer Was he close to Tony McGillick?

Jeffrey Makin But only when they were only when they were there, and not at not in not in the mid-'60s. I mean, there was no relationship between Brett and any of those people, they'd exist as matters, right? And I remember one time, he he hired a car and uh and we drove he had the car for a bit long, so we drove over to um to Ladbroke Grove and pointed out the the house that they used to live in, they used to squat in.

Interviewer What number was it, do you remember? Jeffrey Makin: No. No. It wasn't too far from where the gasworks was.

Jeffrey Makin Um, and uh and the uh and um um what's called it? The the the place where um where Christie lived, which wasn't very far away, and and pointed out the street. It was the chimney at the end of the street that was the thing. So he went and pointed that out. And then we went past this place, he stopped stopped in the street, and there was a uh a bay window, and the light on, he said, "You know who lives here?" And he said, "That's uh Michael Johnson's." And I was very curious. They weren't speaking. I'd never not met Michael Johnson, I met Michael later, sometime later. It was very curious, and Brett was was pointing out the window of somebody who he no longer saw at all, who he used to be friends with. Um, but I think it was uh as you could sort of I know that he saw a lot of, and he didn't really have uh As I say, those Australian people he saw, but not reasonably regularly, but not in uh not like every week. So I don't know that he had a lot of very close friends.

Interviewer How's that to be? Because he had a lot of hangers-on.

Jeffrey Makin He had a lot Well, he had a lot of hangers-on here. He didn't have hangers-on there. Um, and I I mean the thing that I looking looking back at it, like he didn't keep friends. He lost those those friends, and it was partly to do with competition. In fact, Peter Blake um I was at the Royal College, and Peter Blake said to me out of the blue, he said, "You know who first did those paintings, Brett Whiteley?" I said, "No." He said, "It was Michael Johnson." And Peter was somewhat uh There was a kind of bitterness in there. [laughs] Interviewer: What did he mean by that? Well, I think he was he was referring to the the paintings that that Brett had done in the early '60s and the release of a number of people who were working very close together, Interviewer: Mmm. Jeffrey Makin: and those sort of uh um sort of kind of a a kind of kind of sort of soft kind of landscape, or sort of landscape come figure painting that he that he did in in '61 and then the uh So I think it was around that that sort of period.

Interviewer But you're saying that Michael Johnson did the paintings first?

Jeffrey Makin Yeah, that's what he meant. That's what he meant. And then Michael, of course, turned his back on that and went to the south.

Interviewer And he was saying Brett picked up on those landscapes of Michael Johnson?

Jeffrey Makin Yeah, and Brett was a good hustler. That's what he was saying.

Interviewer Uh-huh. Right.

Jeffrey Makin And um And then...

Interviewer So Brett was able to...

Jeffrey Makin So Brett was able to, you know, Brett would then hustle, you know, get the show at Matthiesen Gallery, and, you know, he Brett takes off, leaving these other guys behind, you know.

Interviewer Uh-huh, so he took over and then showed Michael Johnson's images, so to speak?

Jeffrey Makin That's what Peter Blake was suggesting.

Interviewer Yeah, I see.

Jeffrey Makin And uh that that there was some it caused some Interviewer: Problem. Jeffrey Makin: I mean that's where the breakdown was, somewhere around around that, and and and Peter was Peter Blake was was fairly um critical. So I suppose if you're going to talk to people about that aspect, you'd probably have to Interviewer: Talk to Peter Blake. Jeffrey Makin: speak with Michael Johnson and speak with speak with Peter Blake.

Interviewer Where is Peter Blake from?

Jeffrey Makin Well, he's uh he's in London.

Interviewer Where Would he Is he Would he be living in London in in London? Because I'm going to London, that's why.

Jeffrey Makin Yes, he's uh...

Interviewer You wouldn't have his address in London, would you?

Jeffrey Makin No, I wouldn't, but you'd probably get him You'd get him through the Royal Academy or the Royal College of Art. Interviewer: Royal Academy?

Interviewer Oh, that's interesting, because I've often wondered about that, actually.

Jeffrey Makin Well, you know, this sounds sounds to me uh sounds to be fairly critical, but I I mean Interviewer: I have to tell you it's quite a relief. [laughs] Jeffrey Makin: Well, I think those paintings of Brett's are very good. I mean they're terrific paintings.

Subject Oh, they're terrific paintings. And um when people say these things, I think in retrospect, if you probably saw what Michael Johnson was doing, or what Brett was was doing at the same time, you'd probably say they were very different things. I mean, that's tends to be how these things go. When you when people are working very close together, uh sometimes either resemblances are exaggerated or or diminished, but they're never quite never quite as they are. That's right. I mean, they look terribly different they look terribly different today, in retrospect. And yet, uh well, there were certain moments where they were pretty close together. But, you know, I don't know what all that means. All that all that suggests is a um

Interviewer There was sort of a healthy competitive kind of thing amongst Australian painters?

Subject Oh, but certainly. I mean, they're ambitious people. They're all ambitious people. And uh you know what Michael Johnson's like, and uh and you know, Tony McGillick is a fairly sort of upfront kind of I mean, they're all fairly aggressive kind of people. Most of them, I think nearly all of them, apart from uh Rollin Schlicht, I think, came from advertising. I mean Brett had worked in advertising agencies, uh Michael Johnson had, Tony McGillick had and still does. No, they all came from from that sort of um background, and Schlicht was uh an architect.

Interviewer So they knew how to hustle, that's for sure.

Subject They oh, I think they, yeah, I mean, you know, they're still, all the the ones that I know, I mean are, are... Still hustling! [laughter] What can you say? That's true. That, you know, that's direct, but to aren't they all? I mean, it's a whole art world in a way. That's how that's it tends to be how it goes.

Interviewer And you lived in the uh Holland Park studio of Brett's for a bit?

Subject Yeah, when he uh when he left for New York, uh took over the the studio. It's sort of a bad period. Why's that? Well, um I used to see a lot of Brett's mother. You knew Brett's mother?

Interviewer Beryl.

Subject She's an unusual woman. Um she was a hard person. Brett told me a story once about um his mother walked out on his father and he was in boarding school. I think it was Scots, I don't know. Scots, yeah. He was in boarding school, and um and his mother is I don't know how old he was, 11 or 12, something like that. Yeah, something like that. Maybe a bit older. Yeah, something like that. Twelve maybe. And uh he went to the airport when she left, begging her to stay. It was sort of um it's quite curious, because there was a lot of resentment there, although friends in there was an awful lot of resentment on both sides. I think that I mean, that's affected a lot of, you know, Brett's relationship with women. Even even to they lived on uh they lived on combat. That's what they liked, because it was to argue about anything. It wouldn't really matter what it was to uh that was you know, that was how that

Interviewer Wendy said the wall was beige, Brett said it was...

Subject Oh yeah, they'd argue for an hour about it. And if you said, 'Well' and I've sat through a number of these if you'd say, 'Well, look, Brett, it's kind of beige.' And, 'Oh, yeah.' He's not interested, because he's locked into this thing with Wendy. And it was about it wasn't about uh it wasn't just a kind of an argument about something else. It was it was in relation to their relationship. And uh that's Tiring. I mean, no, it's, you know, it's it was interesting. When you know, when you're when you're young and you do that and you're in your they were in their twenties, in their in their mid-to-late twenties. It seemed, and I look back at it, it's oh, no. It is, in fact, exhausting. So uh uh they're in 26, 27. It's a long time ago. [laughter] People uh you get rather difficult It's difficult to keep that thing that thing going, do you? No, you can't. Certainly in the forties. [laughter] How can you do it? Why would you do it?

Interviewer Why would you do it? When you say he was a friend of Beryl's in London, did he see a lot of Beryl?

Subject Um

Interviewer I'm just turning on... We're talking about Beryl, and did he see a lot of Beryl?

Subject Yes, yes, he did. Uh I mean, it's fairly, I think fairly regularly. I mean, I've I started to see a lot of Beryl, curiously, no? You did, too? Yeah. In London? Mm. Went to London, yes. To to live with someone. There was someone in the picture, wasn't there? Was he... Well, not at that time, but um well, I don't know who there was. There wasn't in evidence at that time, no. I mean, she wasn't living with someone, but she left to live with somebody. Yeah. How had she met this somebody? In London or Australia or on the ship? No idea. Anyway, so when Brett arrived there was no man around? No. You know, and she Yes, she was uh she was a proud mother. Yeah. And she had a lot of his paintings on the wall and and was was very proud of Brett's success. I mean, that's a standard kind of thing, but yes. Um and and they redeveloped some relationship of mother and and son, and they they'd they'd come to come to some um understanding which was you know, which was uh I mean, they got along they got along apparently quite well. But I sensed underneath there sort of uh uh a very significant resentment, and it would come out in in discussions. I mean, one thing Brett Brett in if in those sorts of um moments, you know, when he's not bullshitting and and he knows, I mean, if you don't entertain that kind of thing, he could be he could he could be a very honest person and and didn't really, you know, wasn't greatly making a distinction between those things that are private or not private or, you know, it was all um you know, you talked about you talked about things that um were of significance, whether private or not, and he didn't try to hide those things. I think that uh it's difficult. I see two two Bretts, you know. There's there's a Brett I knew [laughter] and there was a Brett who was in Australia, and they're two different people. Well, I guess that's that's the one I'm describing, as somebody who is who is uh who was caring, who was who was uh uh you know, had some quiet caring moments and uh uh a kind of honesty and you know, uh and a and an extraordinary generosity.

Interviewer Do you think he felt he was a kinda kinda kind of minor star in London? Did he sense success? I mean, well, at that time, did he think...

Subject No. Oh no. No, he didn't act that way. But I, I remember um he would he he kind of liked the idea. I mean, he would have liked to he would have liked to have been a star, you know. And uh I can remember when there was uh when Jimi Hendrix first uh started, he went to, it was a release, there was a release of a record and he he went, he was standing at the bar, he said, and uh and and Hendrix was there and Hendrix said to Brett, 'I like your hair, man.' [laughter] No, um uh because because Brett had this sort of afro, [laughter] had this sort of blond afro. Um And uh you know, so Brett Brett remarked on that, but also also took it to be uh um Hendrix making a comment about himself and, you know, congratulating himself, really, at that. [laughter] Um saying that he looked uh fine. Um I don't know what that means. You know what it means. Mm. But it's I mean, only only in the sense that it was a kind of an identification

Interviewer Identity, yeah.

Subject with Hendrix, who was a who was a rising star, um, or in or indeed with with Dylan. I mean, he would have... I mean, he had this, as you know, obsession

Interviewer Yeah, obsession, yeah.

Subject with Dylan, and, you know, would have liked to have been Dylan. [laughter] You know, he would have liked to have been a star, I think, in that sense, and uh art's a different kind of deal.

Interviewer I always feel Brett actually Dylan-ised himself.

Subject Dylan-ised himself out of the picture, in a way.

Interviewer He sort of cloned himself, in a way, Dylan-ised Dylan in his Dylan autobiography, and the Dylan interview, the parallels are quite astonishing: the books they've read, the Dylan autobiography, the attitude...

Subject Yeah, um well, well, yes. I I mean, Brett Brett had this sort of thing about um I can remember um once Colin Lanceley came over and and Brett was playing some Dylan and saying, you know, 'Listen to this,' and and and Colin said, 'Oh, it's just a, you know, it's just a song.' [laughter] Colin couldn't see it as anything but pop music. And Brett was sort of uh couldn't understand that Colin couldn't see that it was, you know, much more than that, that it that it was meaningful. Oh, I I I probably I probably took took took the Brett view. [laughter]

Interviewer The Brett view. [laughter] It seems to me really the two views about Dylan, isn't it? The Brett view and the Colin view.

Subject Yeah, I mean, the there's there's a view that that Dylan put out himself, which is is he's just a, you know, a pop star, just a rock and roll singer. He tried that one for a while.

Interviewer Yeah, that's what he likes, yeah.

Subject Uh and there's nothing really particularly meaningful about it, so he tried the Colin view also [laughter] at one stage. But, you know, I mean, they were songs trying to be meaningful, so they weren't just just pop songs. It's quite obvious. [laughter] So, I mean, we were trying to think of, 'Well, how how is Colin actually hearing this? How can he be...' If he can't hear the words, like, how can he... We can hear, they seem to be words there. What is it that he doesn't hear, or how does he hear this thing that he thinks it's just sort of pop music? Difficult to fathom how other people see things, or when they don't see things in the way in which it seems to be obvious to every, you know, everyone. Particularly to you. Um so, yes, Dylan was uh Dylan was pretty important, but [cough] I think that there's there's another significant thing about Brett, and that that that is that he he wasn't an educated person, and I don't think that's really been picked up on. He's not educated in art. His his uh he educated himself. Same with Bob Hughes, but Bob did an awful lot of reading, and um

Interviewer Brett didn't read, really, did he, according to...

Subject Brett didn't read anything.

Interviewer No, he didn't. He...

Subject I doubt that he ever finished a book.

Interviewer I don't think he started too many.

Subject No. [laughter] He would read little bits of things, but, you know, if they were within within a very particular realm. And and he'd look at pictures and he'd look at art, and and a lot of what he, you know, what a lot of what he understood about art was was gained through looking at things, looking at pictures or looking at at art rather than reading about it. So he never really And I think that was that was um a real and tragic weakness, that.

Interviewer Why?

Subject Well, because it it it it meant that his interpretation of art was was one which has, I think, been extraordinarily dangerous um you know, to kids here, but it wasn't a developed view. And he could have he could be extremely insightful about artworks, but um it was always on the level of uh of of of response or of

Interviewer Emotion.

Subject you know, that you that you should intuit it or it's, yeah, it's emotional. But not all art is that or only that, or it's, you know, it's that and other things. Um and uh the art that he tended to identify with was the the art of not the art that was uh necessarily terribly emotional, but but a particular kind of role of artist. And I can remember him also, I mean, talking about you know, we'd look at things, and I mean talking about some paintings, there was a very good painting by Matisse which is of the The Piano Lesson. Now, that's a very fine, formal picture and a very well-taut picture, and a picture that, you know, Brett liked liked very much, but it's it's it's it's greatly at odds with the kind of thing that he was making or that he made, or that that it not really compatible with the direction that he took, and it's not as it's not the sort of overwhelming emotional kind of response. It's a very clever picture, and Brett and Brett could see that, but he didn't could uh he tended to move towards those things that were more, um, um, sensational or obvious in an artist's life, you know, like Gauguin, all of that, or the obvious one, Van Gogh. Um, and also I remember him telling me he had he had this, uh, pistol. He brought out this pistol, and, well, he painted it. I think he painted it pink, and he said, 'This is This is a pistol I got, I found in in de Staël's studio in Paris.' And de Staël was another artist he had an interest in. De Staël killed himself, I mean, jumped out of a window, didn't shoot himself. But Brett liked the idea of of this gun that was de Staël's gun.

Sandra McGrath Think it's true?

Subject Well, it's just a sto- I have no idea, you know. He said he went into this place and it was it was, you know, empty, and there was just this junk there, and, you know, they'd been empty for years and there was nothing there, I mean, you know, and he found this gun, and he brought it back. He painted it pink to disguise it, so it's not like a gun. It's like a gun that wasn't a gun, also, you know.

Sandra McGrath Why did he paint it pink? I don't think he painted it pink.

Subject No, he paint- No, it was a real gun. He didn't do anything with it. I mean, it was a real gun there, which I think he painted pink as if that was as if that made it somehow not not what it was, you know, which is what it was. What it was, it was a gun. Was a gun, but, um, it's just a it's just a story he told me.

Sandra McGrath Did you see the gun?

Subject Yes, he showed it to me.

Sandra McGrath What kind of gun was it?

Subject It was a little pistol.

Sandra McGrath It wasn't a...

Subject No, it was

Sandra McGrath Colt .45?

Subject No, it was smaller than a Colt .45. It was a pistol, it was some kind of pistol. But, um, but it was a story about, it was like, 'This was de Staël's gun. He could have killed himself. He did kill himself, but he didn't do it with the gun, but he could have done it with the gun.' It was a sort of idea of toying, toying with death that was represented by this story and the gun and and and the life of de Staël, or the life of Van Gogh, or the life of Gauguin, and so on and so forth.

Sandra McGrath Did he jump out of that studio window, do you know?

Subject Well, that's what Brett said. I don't know how high it was. I don't think it was very high, I think it was only first floor, first floor, yeah. Anyway, that's You know, I'd You have to check the facts of that, but...

Sandra McGrath Did Brett tell you he jumped out the window?

Subject Yes.

Sandra McGrath Did you know he jumped?

Subject No, he told me.

Sandra McGrath Do we know he jumped out?

Subject I don't know.

Sandra McGrath So we don't know he jumped.

Subject I hope you know I'm not interested in these things.

Sandra McGrath No, I'm just interested in how much of his relationship to that was fantasy and simplicity, you know?

Subject Well, I I I I don't know that. I mean, I think he No, it doesn't matter, really. I mean, I would take it that that what he was saying was was the case. I mean, I think, yes, he killed himself. I'm I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that, in general, it's more or less right. But, uh, you know, it's not, again, it's not something I had a particular interest in. Um, I think, I mean, you know, Brett was uh He he had this sense of, when he was in the presence of famous people, he he was, you know, fairly meek.

Sandra McGrath Fairly

Subject meek.

Sandra McGrath Meek, uh.

Subject I mean, you hear the story the the the story about Hendrix, or, you know, Hendrix saying, 'I like your hair, man,' and, you know, but that the conversation didn't go on from there. And there wasn't any relationship. And Hendrix was a curious person, because he did have an interest in contemporary art. And he was a double person. He was a guy who'd put suits on and go to galleries and go to, you know, openings and, and had a lot of friends who were, you know, serious contemporary artists. And he had this other persona, which was the one you see pictures of. Um, Brett when we were in

Sandra McGrath Did he know Hendrix, or did he not know him?

Subject No, he didn't know him.

Sandra McGrath He just stood in a bar beside him one night?

Subject Yeah, and and, you know, they're both sitting there with this hair, and they recognised each other. And, uh, so that's where it was.

Sandra McGrath Oh, they recognised each other through their hair?

Subject Yeah, the hair, that's right. I mean, I was in I was in New York with with Brett, and that, you know, we'd be in a be in a diner, and, uh, and and some someone would say, 'Hey, you know, I know you.' And and Brett would say, 'Yeah, Harpo.' You know, he'd get this sort of thing from people. So in New York they recognised him as Harpo Marx,

Sandra McGrath Which he looked a lot like, in fact.

Subject He did, a lot like. And as he grew older, he looked more like. Um, so he'd always get this kind of...

Sandra McGrath Well, before I forget, tell me some places in that he frequented when he was in New York, who he stayed with. I mean, you know, when you say went to diners, were there bars, was there a bar in New York he frequented a lot?

Subject Um, there was a bar in in uh 23rd Street, which was a black bar, in fact, and we went there a number of times. In fact, I went, um, I went there once with a friend of mine who lives in New York, and I said, 'You know, we've got to go to this place.' They had a pool hall, and they sell soul food and so on. Uh, and he had a studio nearby, um.

Sandra McGrath Where was his studio?

Subject It was in 23rd Street.

Sandra McGrath The studio was in 23rd Street?

Subject Yeah, but it was on the other side of the road to the Chelsea and across, um,

Sandra McGrath It's funny, I have this in...

Subject Across Sixth Avenue? I can't remember now. It was a block that

Sandra McGrath He was in 23rd Street.

Subject It was in a block, um... The Chelsea's between, what is it, between, uh, Fifth and Sixth, is it? Or what is it? Do you remember?

Sandra McGrath No.

Subject Can't remember.

Sandra McGrath Of course, I'm going to New York, because I want to sort of suss that out, the map.

Subject It's one block It's one block west on the other side of the road, and there's a bar, it's a black bar, and it was up and you know, it was nearby and upstairs. And it was owned by a dealer, it may have been Richard Bellamy, I I can't remember, but I think it may have been Richard Bellamy. But it was owned by a dealer, and Billy Apple had a studio next to it on the same floor. They didn't seem to get along too well.

Sandra McGrath What Who's the name?

Subject Billy Billy Apple.

Sandra McGrath Billy?

Subject Apple. Billy Apple was, um, is a a New Zealand artist who went to the Royal College, spent some time in London, went to the Royal College, and then went to New York and was a sort of pop artist. He made apples, that's why. His name is not Apple. Apple is, uh, but he changed his name to Apple and made these things with apples. He's He's well known conceptual artist.

Sandra McGrath In New Zealand?

Subject I think he's now in New Zealand, but he was in New York for many years. And and he made was made making neon pieces at that time, and Brett just thought this was a bit ridiculous. That that, uh, you could live Billy Apple would have these neon pieces, and it'd be amazed. You know, he's been inventing new colours in neon, and anyway, that's what Billy Apple was making.

Sandra McGrath What was Brett's reaction to that?

Subject He just thought it was sort of strange, didn't really understand.

Sandra McGrath But he he was in the same building? I can't quite get into Brett's studio.

Subject They were in the same building on the same floor, and and these studios, these rooms, were owned by a dealer, and I think it was Billy Apple's dealer. Um, and Brett, you know, got a studio through some, I don't know, through some relationship.

Sandra McGrath And who was Billy Apple's dealer then?

Subject I don't know, but it may may have It may have been Richard Bellamy, but I maybe wrong. I won't swear.

Sandra McGrath Did you ever go to the studio?

Subject Yeah.

Sandra McGrath What Was he doing there, American Dream, when you did the studio? Was he doing the American Dream?

Subject Um,

Sandra McGrath He did other works.

Subject No, that was later.

Sandra McGrath He did other works than American Dream? That was the major work.

Subject Yeah. Yeah, I I really I really can't remember precisely what was in the studio, but he was talking about I think it all got out of hand, you know, really. I mean, the American Dream, I think it all got out of hand.

Sandra McGrath What What?

Subject The American Dream itself was out of hand, you know. I mean, this idea of this of trying to picture, you know, making this vast painting. It was sort of funny, you know.

Sandra McGrath It's funny, at the same time Norman Mailer wrote a book called An American Dream, which was published, I think, the same year he started The American Dream. And Mailer was very high profile in New York.

Subject Mm. An American Dream, yeah. Mm. Yeah, sure, yes.

Sandra McGrath Is that right?

Subject Yeah. Yes, he would have been.

Sandra McGrath Well, tell me about his life in New York, then. Friends, and did you know him?

Subject Well, I can't say very much. I mean, I was, you know, spent three weeks with him in New York.

Sandra McGrath That's quite a lot.

Subject Um, we used to go to, um, Max's Kansas City. When we When I arrived in New York, he took me down to Max's. Somebody, as we were arriving at Max's, somebody came rushing out the door, and, uh, turned around and kicked the window in. Max's, we went in, there were people with, you know, the cuts people with cuts and and, uh, and Brett said, 'Well, yeah, you know, 'so now you think you're in New York,' 'you think this happens every night.' Which it didn't, but, um... Um, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Where were some other places you went? Third Avenue, was that the place to hang out in that period?

Subject Well, you know, you're talking about, um, 1968.

Sandra McGrath I'm just asking you to think.

Subject It's an awfully long time ago.

Sandra McGrath What would have been a day in New York? Where did he buy his supplies, for instance? The art supplies. He'd go to Pearl Paint? Just walk the streets? Go to museums?

Subject Yeah. Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Did you eat in good restaurants or bad restaurants or medium?

Subject Medium restaurants. Okay.

Sandra McGrath Was there any meeting place in New York that It wasn't like London, though. That's what I'm really getting at.

Subject Well, Max's was a, you know, I mean, Max's was a meeting place and there were And there are artists I can't There are I mean, artists went there.

Sandra McGrath Were there artists there?

Subject So it was a kind of, um, microcosm of of that kind of world. Yeah. Mm. But it was a hotel. It had nothing but rooms. Rooms or apartments and

Interviewer yeah, suites. And is there a penthouse there?

Subject There were two. Yeah, one was, um, Jonas Mekas had, er, Jonas, Jonas Mekas is a a filmmaker. M-E-K-A-S, I think. Jonas, J-O-N-A-S, I think, Jonas Mekas had the other one. And there was sort of, um, like a like a greenhouse in there, and we looked in. Brett reckoned that she had snakes. Um, so there were two there were two penthouses uh on the roof. And Brett had a a big room, a room that would have been four times this size, and uh and a kitchen with a little sort of dining area and so on, and then a a roof garden. And he had some geese, I think, ducks?

Sandra McGrath Was Arkie there? She was there.

Michael Johnson Yeah, sure. Mm.

Sandra McGrath Did they have a little, sort of, bed? How was Arkie?

Michael Johnson Geez, where did Arkie sleep? I can't remember. It must have been another room, but I can't remember.

Sandra McGrath Where were you staying, then? Did you stay in the penthouse?

Michael Johnson Yeah, I stayed in the, there was a, where the kitchen was, there was a bed.

Sandra McGrath There was a bed in the kitchen. So you slept in the kitchen.

Michael Johnson Yeah. Yeah, and it was, it was like a spare room, kitchen-cum- cum-dining room-cum-sitting room-cum-whatever. Uh, and that was, like, at a l- a little higher level, so that was actually on the, literally on the roof, and the other room was, was lower. Yeah, the other bedroom was down. Uh, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Well, you actually had quite an up-close look at, sort of, the romantic life at the Chelsea.

Michael Johnson Yes.

Sandra McGrath And what, what was it sort of like? Was it sort of getting up late? I don't know how you actually combine being a romantic having a child,

Michael Johnson Well, Brett would be out, yeah, well, Brett would be out, you know. Brett would be out doing things, but Wendy, uh, um, what's his name, um, Noel Sheridan, uh, they were friends of Noel Sheridan. You know Noel Sheridan? And Noel had a loft further downtown, and I remember we went to visit Noel, and met Noel there. And Noel's wife, and Wendy, had this kind of junk, you know, clothing shop they started. We went to this place, uh, with, with Wendy, which had fur coats, fur coats and leather jackets, and it was a huge loft, huge warehouse, and there were these furs stacked up to, like, you know, six-foot high. Piles, piles of of old furs and things. Anyway, Wendy, um, Wendy and Noel's wife, whose name I can't remember, ran a shop, so they were doing their own thing, and Brett would be doing his thing.

Sandra McGrath You say that that Noel's wife and Wendy had this shop that had furs part of it, or did they actually

Michael Johnson No, that's where they got the furs, they got the furs from this place and you know, that sort of thing.

Sandra McGrath Take it down to their shop.

Michael Johnson I think that they hadn't started in '68, but that's what they were doing, they were kind of in business.

Sandra McGrath Getting furs.

Michael Johnson Yeah.

Sandra McGrath What would, what would, who would look after Arkie while they were out getting furs?

Michael Johnson I think Wendy looked after Arkie. I don't remember Arkie very clearly in New York.

Sandra McGrath Children usually stick in your memory.

Michael Johnson Yeah, it's funny, but I can't-

Sandra McGrath Can't picture it.

Michael Johnson It will probably come back to me, but uh...

Sandra McGrath No, but so life, where, when you say

Michael Johnson I don't know, I mean Arkie was always just around and uh was was uh, you know, part of it. I mean, I don't part of the deal. I mean, it's just part of the furniture. I mean, she was obviously a participant, and in it all, so so I don't remember her clearly as a separate as a separate thing.

Sandra McGrath How do you compare Brett, can you compare Brett in a paragraph or two after this enter, Brett Whiteley in London and Brett Whiteley in New York?

Michael Johnson Oh, he was more frenetic in New York. He was more frenetic. He was a calmer person in London. He became much more on edge, much more sort of nervous or you know,

Sandra McGrath Was that because of New York? Did New York intimidate him?

Michael Johnson No, I mean New York was a very exciting place. I mean, it's- it still is, I mean I still find it to be, but um New York was a place that I had expectations about which were fulfilled. I mean, it's a very it was a very exciting and interesting, stimulating place then, and, you know, had been for a long time, you know, an awfully long time. So it was uh it was where the action was.

Sandra McGrath Compare to London? How do you

Michael Johnson Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. London is, you know, London is a is a place where, you know, it's a place where nothing happens.

Sandra McGrath Even in the '60s, with all that Beatles stuff?

Michael Johnson It's all it's all surface. And it wasn't substantial, a lot of those things that happened in in the '60s. And it wasn't driven, you know. New York is a place where it's more, where the energy is a little more palpable. In London, there is no energy. And people do things, and it's in a way why people from outside can come and do things, and you know, why maybe Peter Blake has found, found Brett's hustling a little offensive. I mean, it it probably was, and, you know, is. But um and also why, you know, why the Oz people were successful, you know, why Martin Sharp and Richard Neville were successful there. I mean, people who came in with a little bit of ambition and drive, and the English tend to be a little bit laid-back, and that was the nature of the place. And, uh, New York was a very, very different thing.

Sandra McGrath In what way?

Michael Johnson Well, that that that there were things happening, that that art was, I mean, for me, up till then, sort of now, I mean, art was a thing that was much more uh serious, and it was a living thing. And it was a part of life, whether it's uh there was another another bar we went we used to go to which um had, you know, very good works of contemporary art on the wall. It was in fact like a gall- looked like exactly like a gallery, except it was a bar. I can't remember the name of it. But the that contemporary art and the best contemporary art was embedded in life. It was a regular thing, and and and it was like something that people were interested in.

Sandra McGrath Contemporary art was embedded in life and drinking and eating?

Michael Johnson Yeah, it was all part of the same, yeah, part of the same thing. Um, but London was a sort of de-centred place where really people didn't you know, there was no no art world in London. In a sense. I'm exaggerating, but there was no centre to it. There were a lot of artists and so on, but uh it was, you know, a very fractured kind of thing, the art world in London.

Sandra McGrath That's strange. You'd think it'd be sort of cosy around the pub. Artists change, but in fact New York was more cosy around Max's.

Michael Johnson Not particularly. Much more.

Sandra McGrath That's strange.

Michael Johnson I think so. But, you see, I mean, I think uh maybe um you know, maybe the Chelsea thing was also an aspect of that freneticism in Brett. And, and, and, you know, we're not we really can't forget drugs.

Sandra McGrath Pardon?

Michael Johnson We really can't forget the role of drugs in that, because now

Sandra McGrath I want to I want to bring that I want I want not really I know your views on that, but this is where it all started. How did it-

Michael Johnson Mm.

Sandra McGrath Do you know how

Michael Johnson Evidently, I don't know. I mean, the the only um evidence of drugs, apart from marijuana, which, you know, is to was a sort of expected thing anyway, was, um, one evening when, uh, when they when they pulled out some opium, and I tried it, and I didn't find it did very much. But, I mean, that was the only evidence of anything that I saw that was

Sandra McGrath This is at the Chelsea? In their in their penthouse?

Michael Johnson In their place, yeah. So I wasn't aware of I mean, I wasn't aware of this problem until after Brett w- left New York.

Sandra McGrath So you don't really know what happened? Where they got started?

Michael Johnson No, but I mean you could see it, because, you know, you go to the Chelsea Hotel and you see the people, and you see the people uh he also hung out with there. Um, uh, you know, black guys who don't have any obvious means of support, who are riding around in hired limos. Nice people. I don't know. Don't ask me. How do I know what's going on? I don't know what's going on. That's, uh, and I just don't know. I mean, I it Of course, of course it was a place where drugs were dealt, whether it's this guy or that guy, you know, obviously it was a place where drugs were dealt. And that's where he lived. You know, and and they're,

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Michael Johnson it's it's a a simple fact of the relationships of people in that environment. And Brett was a person who liked to experiment to an extent, within within very within very strict moral limits. But this one seemed to be I mean, that would be a sort of thing that he would be interested in experimenting with, because, you know, he wouldn't see it as being

Sandra McGrath So, who would he have seen in New York besides yourself? You came for three weeks, is that right? Or two weeks?

Michael Johnson Oh, yeah. Uh, no, I went I was living in London, so...

Sandra McGrath You went to New York on vacation?

Michael Johnson Yes, oh yes, because I was, um, I was at the Royal College at the time,

Sandra McGrath So, who did he hang out with?

Michael Johnson so I was doing Uh, I really, well, I don't, I mean, it certainly Noel Sheridan he hung out with.

Colin Lanceley And I could understand, I mean, Brett telling me the story about what happened with him and his, you know, when they were a couple of sorts. And this thing were consistent. They were not, not at odds, the stories were not at... The attitude was, was to say that there was a kind of ruthlessness. But, you know, okay, she's not the only one. Millions, millions of people out there who are, who are ruthless. Um, but, um, uh, you know, I mean, I think my, my... Uh, you know, I was a naive, young, young person who believed people. And when people, uh, when there's a friendship or people are being friendly, as I know, I trust, I trusted it for what it appears to be. Um, and I took, took Beryl in that way, and was, you know, very friendly with her and, I, you know, got screwed in the end. So, that's, that's life. But it wasn't, uh, Brett wasn't involved in that, you know, in any way. But, no, I think, um, the break with Brett was rather over um, the world he lived in here, which is one that I was, I thought was somewhat antithetical to it. I mean, I think he had a lot of people around him who were second-raters and hangers-on. And, uh, for some reason, he entertained these people and they were, um, I was about to sort of be indiscreet and say there, you know, like to say their scum or, you know, I mean, people who were really nothings, who fiddled around with art like a, like a fun little parlour game. And that didn't help, uh, help Brett in terms of being an artist or a person or anything else. I mean, if he has a problem, he had an obvious problem that got worse with drugs. Those were not the people to help him. They were not the people to be around because they, they, you know, they wouldn't go out of their way to, uh, assist with that. Other people have been through these problems and, and there have been good friends of those people. I mean, Eric Clapton's probably a good example of somebody who, who went through the same kind of thing and came out the other side. A weak, not terribly strong person, uh, and, uh, who had, who had friends who, who were prepared to be phoned up at 3:00 in the morning and, you know, put up with the sort of thing you'd did put up with with people who are addicted. Um, but, uh, Brett protected himself with these people. And I don't think they protected him. And that's, and that's how I see it from the outside.

Sandra McGrath I know he was in a very bad country.

Colin Lanceley Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Very bad country.

Colin Lanceley Well, I saw Eric Clapton at that time, and I mean, I, I worked in a recording studio for a period and, um, worked for The Who and Eric Clapton was recording. He was looked after by, and that's, again, another story, he was looked after by Pete Townshend. Pete Townshend was a person he called up at 3:00 in the morning and a person who was long-suffering and looked after him. Um, we came in one day and there was, there was a cigarette machine which was smashed in on the floor. And, uh, someone said, "Well, who do you think did that?" And the obvious people amongst those in, in The Who that you would suspect would be, you know,

Sandra McGrath Keith Moon.

Colin Lanceley Keith Moon would be the first person you would suspect. No, it was Eric Clapton. Meek, mild, meek, meek, mild Eric was the guy who pulled it off the wall. Um,

Sandra McGrath He had a problem.

Colin Lanceley He had a problem. Because drugs do funny things to people.

Sandra McGrath Yes.

Colin Lanceley You know, when people are on heroin, they're not, they're not, um, they're not necessarily in control of themselves. There's another ruler. Um, anyway, I mean, that's, uh, the break with, with Brett was really over that. I mean, it's a world that I didn't have a stomach for. The world of the people he mixed with was not, was not a, the world that I wanted to have anything to do with.

Sandra McGrath Mhm.

Colin Lanceley And I felt sad about it. It was like there, there was this wall of thing around him that was ridiculous.

Sandra McGrath Well, I think he's, you know, a very isolated person.

Colin Lanceley I think he's, um, I think he was probably a fairly lonely person.

Sandra McGrath I'm sure of that.

Colin Lanceley You know, I'd see him from time to time, and we'd never recognize each other.

Sandra McGrath He wouldn't recognize you?

Colin Lanceley We, we wouldn't recognize each other.

Sandra McGrath You wouldn't?

Colin Lanceley For years.

Sandra McGrath Really?

Colin Lanceley Mhm.

Sandra McGrath Just to sever the connection with the past?

Colin Lanceley I don't know, um. I mean, Brett's not here to answer.

Sandra McGrath No, of course.

Colin Lanceley Yeah, I mean, I, um,

Subject Well, yeah, I don't think you can go too far, but yes, I I babysat it or, you know, I— Sandra McGrath: He wasn't even there for it. He went to the opening, continue the show, that would be right, wouldn't it? Subject: I think so. I might be wrong, but I— I might be wrong, but I think so. Sandra McGrath: Did you did you— Subject: Yeah. Sandra McGrath: Were you involved in the exhibition show at Marlborough? Subject: Um, yeah, I'm not sure how much I actually did with that. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't swear by it, but I think that's what happened. Sandra McGrath: Oh, it's pretty happy— Subject: Oh, it was pretty, happy to, you know, it was happy to do it. Sandra McGrath: When did you get into Tony Reichardt? Reichardt? Subject: Reichardt. Well, I mean, I got along all right with Tony. And I worked, you know, after um I think between '69 and '70, '71, so I worked at worked for for um Marlborough. The last thing I did was a Francis Bacon retrospective at the Grand Palais, which was uh, and that was just advising on the hanging, curating, they left the hanging. Sandra McGrath: Did you ever see Brett make contact with Bacon? Subject: No, but I know he— Sandra McGrath: Bacon— Subject: That was another one of those little standoff things that, you know... Sandra McGrath: Bacon and Brett. Subject: Brett was Well, let's say when he came Yeah, I mean when he— I don't think Bacon was terribly interested in Brett, but I think Brett— Sandra McGrath: Was very interested in Bacon. Subject: Yes, and uh and I think he went to see him, and I don't know that it, you know, developed. I mean, Bacon was a very difficult person. And he was a real bitch. But uh— Sandra McGrath: And an alcoholic. Subject: And alcoholic. Well, I mean uh yeah, I mean that's another another story. But I mean, Marlborough had to, at one point, I mean, he had this uh he was going, he had started to smash up all his pictures,

Sandra McGrath Marlborough? Bacon? Subject: Bacon in his studio, and— Sandra McGrath: Alcohol? Subject: And um yeah. And the person who was sort of minder at Marlborough... Sandra McGrath: Was that you? Subject: No, no. Um,

Subject Terry Miles. Inappropriately called Terry. Sandra McGrath: Terry? Subject: Inappropriately called Terry, as a East End uh Jewish person. Sandra McGrath: Terry Miles. Subject: Terry Miles. Previously called Mahlstein, but he changed his name to protect the children, so he said. So he's Cockney. Sandra McGrath: Yes. Subject: Um, he had to go and rescue the paintings. Bring them back. But that's nothing to do with Brett. Sandra McGrath: No. Subject: Yeah, but Bacon was a Brett Bacon was a somewhat difficult character. I never met him. Sandra McGrath: Well... Subject: Oh, well, I did meet him at uh in Paris, but I didn't meet him I don't think I met him at um in London. Sandra McGrath: When you were in London, so did Brett have Bacon? Had he gone to see him or...? Subject: I think he'd been to see him, but I don't think there was any kind of um close contact. Sandra McGrath: No. Did you hear of Brett make an overture to Bacon? Subject: I think Brett made an overture and I think it was rebuffed. I can't remember exactly the story. But there wasn't a friendship there. Sandra McGrath: Why did he do those sort of— I mean, you remember that series of Bacon heads he did? Subject: Mmm, the collages. Sandra McGrath: It's quite good. Why did he do this Bacon? Because he was just— Subject: Well, it's all part of the same— It's all part of the same thing. I mean with uh whether it's uh... Sandra McGrath: Baudelaire... Subject: Well, or or Rembrandt and and certainly certain of Rembrandt's paintings. I mean not to be interested in the whole, whole raft of Rembrandt's work, but just the portraits. Just the portraits. Um, Gauguin and Van Gogh, or Rimbaud and, you know... Sandra McGrath: How are we doing? Subject: Okay. All right. Sandra McGrath: Oh, it's too bad. I could just listen to Brett...

Sandra McGrath Do you want to talk another time? Because you knew him. Subject: Yeah. Well, the Fiji Fiji was a sort of the point the the the the the point where I think I probably stopped knowing Brett. And and it's also the point where uh his his time in Australia began, and it all hinges around there earlier or later. Uh I was going to say before, I was trying to think where Brett's work stopped being art. And I couldn't actually pinpoint it because I kept moving it back earlier. I kept making it earlier. Sandra McGrath: To Fiji? Subject: No, no, earlier than New York.

Subject I kept making it earlier. Sandra McGrath: Earlier and earlier. Subject: I mean, I would say that New York was the turning point as far as all that goes. Sandra McGrath: The drugs go. Subject: The drug and the attitude towards art, where where he stopped engaging in art as a serious kind of thing, stopped trying to make art, just trying to be an artist. Trying to be a great artist, not make art. That seemed You know, I'd pinpoint New York as being that, but when I think about it, it also preceded that. Sandra McGrath: Yes. Subject: Yeah, but that was also to an extent going on in London in the work that he was making. Sandra McGrath: Very interesting. Subject: Brett is a great draftsman and uh I find it offensive and and Colin Lanceley pulled the same chestnut out in his thing. It's like uh something people say without even thinking. And yes, Brett had a facility Sandra McGrath: To draw. Subject: To draw, but you know,

Sandra McGrath A great draftsman. Subject: I mean, to say to say he's a great natural draftsman, Sandra McGrath: A great natural draftsman. Subject: as as Brett would say that Hendrix is a great natural guitarist. That's what he'd say. But it's like you didn't uh have to think about it, you could just do it. Whether it was that simple is another matter. But you know, there's a kind there's a kind of denigration, you know, in saying uh somebody is a great draftsman, as if, 'Well, what else can you say?' or 'Is there nothing else to say?' or, I mean, 'He's a great, but a crummy artist.'

Subject A great drawer, but a crummy artist or Sandra McGrath: Yes, or Subject: or a great natural drawer,

Sandra McGrath But he can't paint a picture. Subject: But he can't paint a, yeah.

Subject Exactly. Or uh 'Yes, he could always do it. He's a' you know, it's like uh you know, 'A monkey can do It He can do it like monkeys can do it naturally, uh, but he hasn't learned anything.' I mean, all those sorts of It's just It seems really stupid. It's kind of Always coming back to drawing, as if it's something that stands alone, that's sort of unconnected to anything else.

Sandra McGrath Well, do you know what I think that people say that