Peter Kingston

Peter Kingston Um, when I first met Brett, Garry Shead, uh, said that we should make a movie about Brett Whiteley because he would be perfect for, uh, making a movie about. And, um, I spent the next four ye- years really living with Brett and Wendy. And the movie sort of fell by the wayside, although remarkably enough it actually was made, but, uh, it was such a super cool film that, uh, hardly was the the, uh, camera ever turned on Brett, and hardly was ever the microphone recording Brett. So that was very cool in those days, and, um, but unfortunately it was too cool, the film. And, uh, but it exists, and, um, I can give it to you in video, actually. I was very embarrassed by it the other day, because it- it- it is, uh, a victim of that, um, period of, um, time.

Sandra McGrath Do you remember what that period is? You know, for some

Peter Kingston Well, it was the '70s, wasn't it, early '70s?

Sandra McGrath People don't know dates with Brett. It's funny. Time just went out the window, you know.

Peter Kingston Yes, I think it was early '7- it was the '70s, 1970, 1971, '72. And, uh, we got the first, uh, common- uh, film grant that was ever issued, and, um, they were thrilled to have a film made about Brett, but there was no comment about the film when it was made, at least. It wasn't the sort- It wasn't the sort of thing...

Sandra McGrath Listen, we were making a- a film down at Bundanon. That's how-

Peter Kingston Yes, it never went into th- Yes, it was meant to- It didn't go into that, unfortunately, that bit.

Sandra McGrath Where is that bit?

Peter Kingston Look, I went to my mother's, I can't find the outtakes, you know, because that's very sad. I mean, you know...

Sandra McGrath You really can't find them?

Peter Kingston Even though the film was super cool,

Sandra McGrath I know. I'm just going to cut this out, because that's...

Peter Kingston I'll tell you what I've got, which is rather wonderful. Do you remember the day we visited Arthur Boyd

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston at, uh, his other place?

Sandra McGrath Riversdale.

Peter Kingston Yeah, Riversdale. And do you know Arthur handed out those etching plates?

Sandra McGrath That's right.

Peter Kingston Now I'll show you the etching I did of that day, um,

Sandra McGrath You have to say, this is an etching...

Peter Kingston This is an etching done in 1972, and, uh, we all visited Arthur Boyd and his wife, Yvonne, uh, at the Shoalhaven, Riversdale, and there were the McGrath family and the Whiteleys and myself, and Arthur had just built this brand-new house and it was all looking a bit raw, and, um, he handed out all these little etching plates to everybody and some nails, so everybody ended up doing an etching, but I went up to the, uh, studio with Arthur and Brett later, and Brett did six etchings of Arthur and Arthur did about half a dozen of him, and I, luckily, did an etching of a- Brett doing an etching of Arthur, which is sitting in front of us now. So I gave one of these to the art gallery. I've got a lovely letter from Edmund Capon about it.

Sandra McGrath Can we use one of those in the book, please?

Peter Kingston Please! I'd be thrilled and honoured.

Sandra McGrath Oh, fantastic.

Peter Kingston Thrilled and honoured. You can take that today if you like.

Sandra McGrath All right. Well, that'd be fantastic. But I'll tell you again, I want to cut this out when I'm talking.

Peter Kingston And, um, that began this- this- this day- This this started me off on doing doing etchings because, uh, and I- I sent one to Arthur Boyd, and I got a very nice letter back from him. It said,

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's wonderful.

Peter Kingston Uh, 'Dear Peter, thank you for the etching you did of me with Brett all those years ago at Riversdale on the Shoalhaven. It's very acute. Best wishes for 200 more etchings. Yours, Arthur.'

Sandra McGrath That's wonderful.

Peter Kingston So that's very nice, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath Very acute.

Peter Kingston And, um, so anyway, it would be good to hunt up the other etchings that were done on that day.

Sandra McGrath Because we're going to put black and white into the book, in pho- in the form of photographs that, uh, good photographs that people have done, with, you know, things like this. So it's going to be like a little homage book as well.

Peter Kingston Yes. I must-

Sandra McGrath A big homage.

Peter Kingston I must say that's one of the favourite photos I ever took of Brett. A little bit, uh, out of focus, though, but it's, uh- that's up at Hill End. It's rather beautiful, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath That loneliness again.

Peter Kingston Yes, yes, precisely. Is there a dog there? I don't think there's even a dog there.

Sandra McGrath No. Just in the gum trees and the

Peter Kingston Yes.

Sandra McGrath muddy water. That's fantastic, Pete.

Peter Kingston I'm glad.

Sandra McGrath Look through these pictures and just tell me about those pictures.

Peter Kingston Yes, yes, I will. This is, um...

Sandra McGrath Tell me what we're looking at.

Peter Kingston This was at Hill End. This is when the, uh, Brett did that Hill End painting and it fell off the roof of the car coming along the Bells Line Road. It came screeching off the roof of the car and it narrowly missed a couple of other cars.

Sandra McGrath What Now what time was that? Can we...

Peter Kingston Uh, now that would have been about, um, four years ago, would it?

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's all, so

Peter Kingston Yeah.

Sandra McGrath like '90, '91.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Nine- 1990, you think?

Peter Kingston I think th- that would b- would have been it, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And you and Brett went to Hill End?

Peter Kingston Yes, we went to Hill End and we-

Sandra McGrath With who else? Was who else?

Peter Kingston We sta- we stayed with Michael Driscoll. And, um...

Sandra McGrath Is that where he lives now?

Peter Kingston No, he lives at Gulgong now. And, uh, Brett did this wonderful painting and it was really more of a model of Hill End. It was like a big, um, uh, relief map of Hill End and he was gouging it. It was like a very thick, about four inches deep, the, um, the painting. There it is there.

Sandra McGrath Oh, my god.

Peter Kingston And he was gouging gouging into it. So these must be the only photos taken, or they would be the only photos taken of it being- being made. I hope these are, you know, if they're of interest to you, they're of good quality enough.

Sandra McGrath Oh yeah, for sure, Peter.

Peter Kingston And, um, Oh, there's the Haefliger house.

Sandra McGrath Who's the Haefliger?

Peter Kingston You know, Paul Haefliger and Jean Bellette.

Sandra McGrath Oh, yes. Yeah. Where is that?

Peter Kingston That's Hill End.

Sandra McGrath Did you ever stay there?

Peter Kingston No, but there's a chance of staying there, which I'm looking forward to. Here's more of the, uh, Hill End painting that, uh, was sold about, um, six months ago.

Sandra McGrath What was it called?

Peter Kingston It was called 'Hill End'.

Sandra McGrath Just called 'Hill End'?

Peter Kingston Yeah. But, uh, I'll tell you why it was so fascinating, because it had, um- that's a real brick, a real brick just, you know, he gouged that out and then sunk a real sandstock brick in it, you know?

Sandra McGrath Oh, lord.

Peter Kingston And, um, and around here the gully, yes, look at the gully, look at the gully gouged in there.

Sandra McGrath Ah, yes.

Peter Kingston I- I I really think that was unique the way he did those sort of paintings.

Sandra McGrath That is, I've never seen-

Peter Kingston You've never seen that? And- and then he was able to pour resin into that and make it like that brown water, you know, that's in the bottom.

Sandra McGrath Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I see, so it's a

Peter Kingston Yes, no, little briar bushes and rabbits, and a gold nugget even was stuck on it.

Sandra McGrath Who bought it? They're lucky people.

Peter Kingston I don't know. It was sold through Christie's, so I don't- if it was, um...

Sandra McGrath Hope a museum got it.

Peter Kingston I- I don't know. I don't know who got that. I know he was sorry to see it sold.

Sandra McGrath Did he have to sell it?

Peter Kingston Uh, Wendy sold it.

Sandra McGrath Yeah. Oh, god. Can I just borrow one of these? Have you got negatives of any of these?

Peter Kingston Of course. No, I No, but I'll tell you what. If, um, if you want to use anything,

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston I will have a negative search.

Sandra McGrath Will you?

Peter Kingston Do you know what I mean?

Sandra McGrath Uh, yeah.

Peter Kingston Yeah. Under the bed. Yeah. I'll tell you what I'd like to do. I don't know whether I'd like to I'd rather give you the whole book than the photos. Do you know what I mean? Because

Sandra McGrath Yeah, well

Peter Kingston somebody had a lend of these before and the fact that they got the whole book meant that, uh, it all came back to me. Do you know?

Sandra McGrath Exactly, instead of people... Yeah. Go flip through the book and enjoy-

Peter Kingston Okay.

Sandra McGrath enjoy your memory of that.

Peter Kingston Yeah, okay. Um, so that was, uh...

Sandra McGrath See, if you get some more of these, I'd like to buy one of these.

Peter Kingston Yeah, I have I've got another one. Sure.

Sandra McGrath Can I buy? Can I buy it today?

Peter Kingston Sure! Sure, Sandra. Sure.

Sandra McGrath I'll give you a cheque for it today.

Peter Kingston Okay. Or you can buy that one that you're taking. Yeah. That can go into

Sandra McGrath Okay.

Peter Kingston Um, I feel that's one of the best things I've ever done. I hope I can do it as well again, because, see, I wasn't really etching. Do you know what I mean? I wasn't an artist, so I beginner's luck.

Sandra McGrath I know, I know.

Peter Kingston That's what it is. You become You see too much, you know, when you're an artist, I think. You get too many influences. Oh, here's some some rather nice... Brett always had dogs, and there was, um...

Sandra McGrath Tell me about Brett's dogs.

Peter Kingston That That's Booga. And they're always small dogs, and they're all always cross, crossbreeds. And, um...

Sandra McGrath I thought you meant cross as in angry.

Peter Kingston No, no, no, no. There was, uh, when I met him he had a dog called Bag, who was a Silky cross with a Cairn Terrier. And then there was Reason, who was a sausage dog crossed with a Cairn Terrier. Everything seemed to be crossed with a Cairn Terrier. And then there was Black and White was actually a mongrel fox terrier, and he didn't last too long. Sometimes the dogs only lasted a few weeks and then other dogs have run their whole whole course. And there was Booga, he was a, uh, and then there was, um, and the dog that lasted the shortest time was a dog called Quickly. He didn't last more than a week or so. So, um, I'll give you that, Sandra.

Sandra McGrath Which one is this one?

Peter Kingston That That one's, um, uh, uh, Reason. Sense and Reason. No, the last two- No, Quickly was the last dog. Sense and Reason were before that.

Sandra McGrath Was it Booga, Sense and Reason, and Quickly? Is after

Peter Kingston Quickly was the la- No, I'd th- I'd say it was Bag,

Sandra McGrath Bag,

Peter Kingston and then it was, uh, Black and White, and then it was, uh, Sense and Reason, and then Quickly. And there's some other fox terriers at Longueville, but Beryl would tell you about that. So I suppose Brett and I, our fathers knew each other. That was something that established some other sort of level of friendship that we had, although...

Sandra McGrath How was that?

Peter Kingston They both worked at Fox Films, and I've got a wonderful photo, actually, of our fathers at Luna Park.

Sandra McGrath Really? Yeah.

Peter Kingston frangipani, even though it had a mild climate, and I suppose they must have grown around Longueville and all those places. And uh, but it And he had a beautiful brooch, enamel brooch made of a frangipani. And so it really did run a lot through his work, that frangipani. Um, I'm just Sorry, it's hear something. What I feel about Brett Brett, why I I think the first thing I saw of Brett that I I loved was the zoo drawings that were done in London of the hyenas, and the and uh I think they were silkscreen prints. And um I remember Neil Burley and I were going to save up and buy one together because they were showing at the Terry Clune Gallery. That was the first time I really took notice of Brett's work, which was his drawing. And um to go out with Brett when he was drawing was marvellous because he'd sit in front of a rather normal sort of scene, and Brett would uh do something quite uh um amazing with with uh with his enormous uh resources of being able to see things differently than most people and um making things fresh and and exciting, and um geez, hard to put it into words, but uh um

Sandra McGrath That's all right.

Peter Kingston Um, but we did get on terribly well. I'll read you a letter he wrote me.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I'd like to hear that.

Peter Kingston I've got things all over the place. This is just a scrapbook of my of my journeys so far. Ah, here it is. This is written on Brett's new notepaper, Endlessnessism Proprietary Limited, and evidently I received the first um note on this paper. "Dear Kingo, this is my new letterhead, and I thought, who can I break the page and send one to, considering we live next door and talk about everything, so I really don't have anything to say. But it is nice to feel out the paper and nice to welcome you home from your triumphs on Cork Street. Yours, Brett. It is great that they printed this on tough paper so I can do ink drawings and cut through the page without cutting through the page, as it were. The embossing of the matches should have been a bit more pronounced. There." Isn't that a good letter?

Sandra McGrath I'd love to get a photostat of that just to show. Can we do that?

Peter Kingston Sure, sure. No, I'll get a photostat of it, okay? Once they start coming out Would you like me to go through all my photos

Sandra McGrath and find all the photos of Brett? Yes, please.

Peter Kingston Because I've got many, many, many, many, many photos of Brett, but uh

Sandra McGrath Have you got any more letters to from him?

Peter Kingston No, that's my only letter from Brett.

Sandra McGrath I've only got one, too.

Peter Kingston You've only got one, too, and a lot has been lost. You know, Fran had stolen from from her house at Mangrove Mountain. All the letters from him to his father have been stolen.

Sandra McGrath Who would have done that?

Peter Kingston Well, I'd I'd say people go up there and stay. And, I mean, sketchbooks have been found in in Perth that have been ripped apart. I don't think the sketchbooks should be touched, do you?

Sandra McGrath No.

Peter Kingston I saw a Francis Lymburner sketchbook the other day. I don't think they should be torn out, should they?

Sandra McGrath No.

Peter Kingston It's tempting, isn't it? I think they get their power

Sandra McGrath From being in a book, yeah.

Peter Kingston In fact, it would be nice to publish one of Brett's sketchbooks.

Sandra McGrath It'd be wonderful.

Peter Kingston As a sketchbook.

Sandra McGrath I think this company I'm working for would love to do it, maybe in conjunction with a book, if anyone can find one.

Peter Kingston A sketchbook? I know a couple.

Sandra McGrath Do you?

Peter Kingston Well, they're at the studio. I'll just show you a drawing Brett did of me just before. This was about eight months ago. Because he wanted some company.

Sandra McGrath Where is Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston Millthorpe is between Bathurst and Orange in the central west. M-I-double-L-T-H-O-R-P-E.

Sandra McGrath And what's at Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston Millthorpe is an old gold mining town, and um

Sandra McGrath How would you describe it?

Peter Kingston It's a very English, just like an English country, sort of uh very villagey, with uh lovely verandas and a bit of a ghost town, everything's moved on, but uh very peaceful, and and um

Sandra McGrath Where did you stay there?

Peter Kingston In Frannie's little house, in Millthorpe. Anyway, he um he did these charcoal drawings of me in his sketchbook. He said he's always found me hard to draw, and then he suddenly dashed these off, which I thought were rather terrific. See that? I got up very early and photographed them out of the sketchbook, because I thought, goodness knows what's He must have liked them, because he immediately stamped them. And uh there's my finger, which is his trademark, drawing fingers, isn't it? Yeah, the charcoal, isn't that lovely, the charcoal? And that one Oh, that's lovely. That's a good one, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, that's a very good one. I think that's the better one.

Peter Kingston And look at the dog. Isn't it wonderful the way he drew the dog? That's probably the better one, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath Well, I like the I like these two the best, don't you?

Peter Kingston Yeah, yes. And I'll show you an etching he actually did of me, which isn't isn't nearly as interesting, but uh

Sandra McGrath Could we put those etchings in the book? These photographs of the etchings? I would love to do that.

Peter Kingston You could actually find the original drawings, you know.

Sandra McGrath Could we? Where would they be?

Peter Kingston They'd be at the studio.

Sandra McGrath No, we could I'm sure this would be good enough.

Peter Kingston Really? Yeah. Oh, actually, we've got some Little Prince uh negatives. Clem, I never met Clem. He died when he was 56, three years older than Brett, which is staggering, isn't it? And uh Clem uh my mum knew Clem, and she used to go to parties at uh My mum and dad went to the parties at Percy Kingston and Betty Kingston at Longueville, and Brett used to always be in his dressing gown helping behind the bar.

Sandra McGrath Now go back a bit on this. Your mother and daddy went to parties at at whose?

Peter Kingston At Clem and Beryl's.

Sandra McGrath Oh, at Clem and Beryl's.

Peter Kingston Yeah, at at Longueville.

Sandra McGrath Now tell me the name of your parents.

Peter Kingston Betty.

Sandra McGrath Betty.

Peter Kingston And and uh Percy Kingston.

Sandra McGrath And your father was a?

Peter Kingston He was the uh New South Wales manager of 20th Century Fox. Yep. Actually, I'll find a photo of Clem and Dad at Luna Park. Now just keep talking about your father uh the Kingstons' relationship with Clem and Beryl quietly. Oh, well, it was really just through through through the uh the movie world, the American movie world, and um Tell me about the American movie world out here. The American movie world Well, there was no TV, of course, and movies were the big thing, and there was, as I said before, there was no Australian TV movie industry, so it was all English and American film, and um there was a lot of it. And uh I'll ask Mum a few things about Clem, but I don't I just remember Brett helping out in his dressing gown at the party. What is your mother's telephone number? Yeah, yeah, double-three-seven-one-six-eight-five. Would she mind if I She'd love it. Would she? She'd love it. I'll tell her you're going to ring. That would be nice. Where does she live? She lives at Watsons Bay. Mum could fill you in on all all that thing about about the film world. What's the address there? Uh, 37 Cove Street, Watsons Bay. 37 Cove Street, yeah. Watsons Bay. So um I'll just see if I can find this photo. Oh, there's my dad. See, that's uh the 20th

Sandra McGrath Century Fox sort of Looks just exactly like you'd imagine the '20s to look, doesn't it? Yes, doesn't it?

Peter Kingston Isn't it? That's at Bondi. Bondi. There they are. There's Clem. Would you like a copy of that? Yes, I'd love it. Which one is he? Clem. Isn't he dapper? Oh, yeah. At Luna Park, and there's my dad there. Well, describe that picture. Well, um as you can see, Clem is uh wearing a much more stylish coat than the other chaps, and he must have been a um He's even wearing spats. He's even got tan shoes with white spats. Can you see that, Sandra? But you can see his jacket tapers in at the waist, and he's obviously a very very snappy dresser. And um he looks a nice guy, actually. Is there is there a date on that photograph? No, no, unfortunately there's not. I'd say it would be round about 1940 1948? Would it be something like that? Can't you tell by Luna Park? You know it by Uh well, that that's what I'm trying to tell by. It opened in 1935, and I'd say I'd say 1940 Oh well, I see, I was born in 1943. Um 1940 1942, something like that.

Sandra McGrath You say 1942. Let's say 1942. Do you think that's during the war? That'd be during the war. It'd be

Peter Kingston during the war, yeah, yeah. Luna Park was open during the war. Was it? Yeah. And who are the other two men in the photo? Don't know. Don't know the other two men. I could ask Mum. Would you? That would be marvellous. Yeah. If you could uh take that to and ask her about that photograph. Okay, all right. Will you do that? Yeah. I mean, this would be a nice one because it's uh it was our relationship, you know, with our dads, you know. Yeah, how can we get Can Would you Yeah, I'll make a copy of that. Yeah, yeah, I'll make a note of that. You'd like a copy of that. Yes, maybe you should make a note of the

Sandra McGrath things we're talking about so that, because I'd like to get this together before I go, which is You're going to Fiji, aren't you? Yeah. I've got to find the village, go see the village where he stayed and things, and talk to the chief there, too.

Peter Kingston Okay, for Sandra. So for Sandra, we are putting in the Luna Park photo of Clem Whiteley and Percy Kingston at Luna Park around 1942. Yeah. Mum will tell you some interesting things, actually, you know, because she's a lovely person and she's she can always see the amusing side of things. And she feels Beryl she feels Beryl's too racy for her, like she said Beryl hasn't got time for me, I'm too old, but she's probably about the same old age as Beryl. Just she's she's not terribly well, and Beryl's lucky, she's up and running, you know. Well, we're going to put the

Sandra McGrath etching in this is Yeah, the etching things for the book, because I want to get these in the hands of the publishers. So I'll say, who who are the other men, uh-huh, in the photograph in the photo?

Peter Kingston Wendy knew you were coming today. How did she know? I told her last time. Oh, so she's trying to interrupt it. Well, no, she said to come over for lunch, you know. I said, well, I'm busy.

Sandra McGrath Now, what are the things the etching of you that Brett did of you? I'm just going to keep thinking.

Peter Kingston Etching Brett did of me, I'll find that now actually, I've got that, I've got that here. Luna Park was a very exciting part of my childhood and we used to go to the Saturday matinee as many times as possible in our lives, and it had wonderful quality rides and fantasy, particularly Coney Island with the slippery slides and the joy wheel, and I've actually got a photo of Brett and Bob Hughes at Luna Park. And the sad thing about all the photos to do with Brett is that most of them have been lost, and uh but I this is a photocopy, so it'd be great if I can. So you've got to move quickly

Sandra McGrath on this book, haven't you? Yes, I do, because I'm also going We're looking at a We're looking at

Peter Kingston a photostat of a photograph that Brett's drawn on of Brett Whiteley and Robert Hughes at the Luna Park photo studio around about 1950, with a kangaroo, with a kangaroo. And I don't know what Brett's got in his hand. Looks like a switchblade, or it's a pencil or

Sandra McGrath something. Brett has his arms around Robert Hughes, Robert Hughes, and there's a big eye A big eye in the corner that Brett stuck on it, and a drawing. Now,

Peter Kingston that's a wonderful thing. That's a fabulous picture. We'll get it. Well, even if we have to use it like that. I'm afraid the original is missing, so doctor that one up, because I think that's a real score, that one. That was a score. I thought Bob Hughes was a bit mean about Brett. He hates drugs so much. It's it's But he's obviously a dry drunk, you see, because he's had his troubles with alcohol and talk, hasn't he? Oh, I don't think alcohol. I think he had trouble with his wife and drugs. I see. So he's absolutely anathema to him. Yeah, yeah. He just seemed a bit uh Yeah, a bit I couldn't see the friendship there, you know. I thought there was a friendship there, but Anyway, that's a, that's a beauty for you.

Sandra McGrath That's fabulous.

Peter Kingston Do you want... How are we going to do this?

Sandra McGrath In the end, you know, now we can look at his work in, in its entirety, we can see that the eggs and the birds did play a, a huge role in it, haven't they?

Peter Kingston Oh, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Why do you think he was so, his birds were, he and birds were such a theme for those days?

Peter Kingston Well, he... I read a thing he wrote yesterday and said that, um, birds' nests are almost as beautiful as, as... ...the birds and their eggs.

Sandra McGrath Seriously?

Peter Kingston So he found them just, um, the most beautiful things in the world, didn't he, really? Birds and, and their...

Sandra McGrath Where did you find, read that?

Peter Kingston Downstairs.

Sandra McGrath Who's downstairs?

Peter Kingston Um...

Sandra McGrath I mean, I know where downstairs is.

Peter Kingston He did some bamboo. He just said, this is how you, this is how you draw bamboo, and he picked up a brush and quickly did some bamboo, and then he said this thing about birds' nests, and I wrote that on the bottom of it. The girl downstairs, I gave it to her and it's framed, you know, so I just remember he said that. Trouble with Brett is so, everything he said was worth writing down. One never did, you know. But I did then, yeah. Okay, I'll put that mark there, okay?

Sandra McGrath Okay, great.

Peter Kingston That's, that's Brett. But if you'd have a quick look through this, you might find, as you say, Luna Park was such a fantastic, uh, a thing.

Sandra McGrath Well, I just thought it was so weird that there was, there's Mr. Quartly...

Peter Kingston ...and living here now, too.

Sandra McGrath And living here.

Peter Kingston But look at that wonderful building, look at it, you know, with that onion dome on it. It's just too much, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath Okay, unless... and the fact that his view really was dominated by Luna Park.

Peter Kingston My word it was.

Sandra McGrath That's clear. I mean, the Lavender Bay view is Luna Park in a way, isn't it?

Peter Kingston A dog with fire... Um, so this is... ...oh, they're just some cards I did.

Sandra McGrath Um, it's a great scrapbook.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm trying to put things into scrapbooks as they occur, that way you don't slip up, you know. There's Arkie. Where are we?

Sandra McGrath Oh, isn't that a lovely...

Peter Kingston That's a lovely one of Arkie.

Sandra McGrath Describe that photograph. Who did this photograph?

Peter Kingston Ah, Johnny Lewis.

Sandra McGrath I like Johnny.

Peter Kingston And, um...

Sandra McGrath I'll get that for the book.

Peter Kingston Okay, yeah, that'd be a beauty for Arkie, because that's a good period of Arkie's life, you know.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston And Arkie used to help me with magic. We used to do magic together, you see.

Sandra McGrath Tell me about magic.

Peter Kingston Well, it was sort of, um...

Sandra McGrath Look, in this photograph, let's describe the photograph, can we?

Peter Kingston Well, the photograph is, uh, Leouage the Magician, and, um, that's me. And Arkie was Dolly, who was, uh, Leouage's assistant, and Molly the dog, she was also part of the act. She was a chocolate, uh, poodle. And, uh, I think it was, uh, performances that used to happen mainly at parties and things like that, very closed, uh, performances. And, um, Dolly was the magician's assistant.

Sandra McGrath And when were you doing this?

Peter Kingston This must have been when Arkie was, um, eight. Would she be eight there?

Sandra McGrath It's about that, yeah. Could just rip a piece of paper to put in there.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

Sandra McGrath And tell me about you doing magic shows.

Peter Kingston I was a frustrated performer in me, I suppose, you know, and, um...

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston ...you were able to do it, you know, uh, showing off, I suppose. Just, just look at me, sort of. But it was good, because if things went wrong, there was enough disguises, you know, enough, uh, cloaks and things to draw around.

Sandra McGrath How do you spell the name of it, though?

Peter Kingston L-E-U-E-G-E.

Sandra McGrath M-E-U?

Peter Kingston E-G-E.

Sandra McGrath Why did you name the magician Leouage?

Peter Kingston Don't know.

Sandra McGrath You can't think of it?

Peter Kingston No, no, no, it just came out of the blue.

Sandra McGrath And that's you in behind the robe?

Peter Kingston Yeah, that's... and an old wardrobe was the dream chest. See an old wardrobe in there? It was mainly a thing of vanishing Dolly into there and changing into some smaller person.

Sandra McGrath Now, how did you do that?

Peter Kingston Oh, there was a false back, and they were, she just went down, down in size, you know, to a tiny baby.

Sandra McGrath No, I don't know.

Peter Kingston No, that's how we had to get a lend of babies to do it. Had to get a lend of babies.

Sandra McGrath You, you would actually produce a baby out of...

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath ...a real baby?

Peter Kingston Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Or a doll?

Peter Kingston A very real baby.

Sandra McGrath Oh, you did?

Peter Kingston Yeah, once, anyway.

Sandra McGrath What, whose baby was it?

Peter Kingston Oh, I think it was, I think it was, uh... ...must have been Christine Oliver's baby.

Sandra McGrath And tell me the period that you lived close...

Peter Kingston There's Leouage, there's a drawing of Leouage doing the dishes.

Sandra McGrath Doing the dishes.

Peter Kingston He's that sort of magician, he had to do the dishes, you see, rather than using magic.

Sandra McGrath Now, when you said you lived next to Brett for four years, no, more than that.

Peter Kingston Well, I've been living here for 18 years now.

Sandra McGrath So you've live, lived next door to him for 18 years, basically.

Peter Kingston Yeah, well, Brett hasn't lived here for the last four years.

Sandra McGrath No, I know, but up till...

Peter Kingston Yeah, up, up till he left, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And tell me what, and the, um, tell me about sort of... ...daily life of Brett in Lavender Bay, if there was one.

Peter Kingston Oh, daily life of Brett, it was in summer. If it was summer, we'd be, uh, jumping off the end of the wharf into the, the water. This is... ...in the, the days, actually when I came in on the Whiteleys, um... ...they, they only lived upstairs in the house at, at, uh, 1 Walker Street. And there was a huge aviary. The front, um, uh, uh, room was absolutely given over to these birds. And, uh, it was all, had wire mesh across the, the doorways, and the birds were able to come and go as they liked. And, um, their bedroom looked through the, the, the, the, uh, mesh to the outside world. That was the very early days, and, um, ah, it was a very, very exciting...

Sandra McGrath What days? What date? Give me dates.

Peter Kingston Mmm, I'd say this would be, ah, 19... uh, 68.

Sandra McGrath And you were here in 1967?

Peter Kingston Ah, yes, yes.

Sandra McGrath You were in a year earlier.

Peter Kingston Brett gave me that drawing there, see that one there, of the waves? And that's 1970. He used to call me, it says, 'For Dream-a-Day'. He used to call me Dream-a-Day.

Sandra McGrath He used to what?

Peter Kingston Call me Dream-a-Day. I'm not a bit embarrassed, don't put that down. But that's what's written on that thing, 'For Dream-a-Day'. And, um, so that, that, that was when I was, after I'd made the film about Brett, and that was in 1970. So the Lavender Bay, Lavender Bay days must have started about 1968, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Describe the Lavender Bay days.

Peter Kingston Well, it was like being, um, ah, so I wasn't living here just then, I was visiting a lot, and, um, used to stay a lot, stay, stay over. So the, the days used to go into, to a week, and, um, there was no sort of, uh, uh, it was a continuum of being with Brett, really. And, um, if it was summer we'd be diving off the end of the jetty into Lavender Bay, and, um, no worry about pollution or sharks or anything. And, um...

Sandra McGrath Of course there wasn't any.

Peter Kingston Well, I think there...

Sandra McGrath Of course there were and you didn't worry.

Peter Kingston Didn't worry, no. And, um, Brett was always working. He was, um, always sitting in these white cut-off jeans on the living room floor, paintings or drawing or, um, he never stopped. I'll show you a wonderful assemblage I've got on the back verandah that I rescued out of the garden a few months ago, made of a thong and a bit of driftwood and, uh, but that was the sort of thing. In a way he, he was, um, a bit, um, inhibiting because, uh, if one was interested in making things, uh, Brett would always swamp the, uh, the creativity that was around.

Sandra McGrath Mmm.

Peter Kingston You know, he was so creative that, that one sort of either retreated into a glass of wine or, um...

Sandra McGrath ...a cigarette.

Peter Kingston ...a cigarette or, or, or, or, um... Uh, I mean, it was fantastic knowing Brett, but it was also a difficult knowing Brett because one, one's, one's own life went on hold,

Sandra McGrath Mmm.

Peter Kingston really, to, to accommodate Brett, whether you'd be going to the pub and having a, a whisky with him, and quite early, I might add.

Sandra McGrath So after you'd have a bit of, uh, sort of make a composite day up, you'd go for a swim, this is a summer day, go for a swim...

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah. Uh, go for a swim, um, go to the pub and have a whisky and a beer, that was sort of, you know, together, that was a very alcoholic sort of thing. Um...

Sandra McGrath Go to the pub up here, really, is it? Up on the High Street there?

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath What, what is that pub called up there?

Peter Kingston Well, it was usually the early openers down at the quay, you know what I mean? So... But, um, uh...

Sandra McGrath And how'd Brett...

Peter Kingston I know Sundays were wonderful. We used to always go to the Thai... this is, this is a bit of history... always go to the Taiping, down at, um, T-A... T-I...

Sandra McGrath T-A-I?

Peter Kingston T-A-I...

Sandra McGrath T-A-I?

Peter Kingston ...P-I-N-G. The Taiping down at Chinatown. And, uh, Sunday, Sunday afternoon lunches were the most fantastic things. They'd start about 2 o'clock and end about 5. And, um, there'd be dinner for about 20, at least 20 every, every Sunday. And Brett would generously shout, always. And, uh... ...it was, uh... ...very, very pleasant.

Sandra McGrath Who would be at some of those, sometimes?

Peter Kingston Ah, there'd be Peter Wright and Mandy Wright, and, um, there'd be, uh, Pinky.

Sandra McGrath Who was Pinky?

Peter Kingston Pinky Wilson.

Sandra McGrath I don't know that. Who's Pinky?

Peter Kingston Yes, he came up to Bundanon, remember that? Gavin. Gavin Wilson.

Sandra McGrath Gavin Wilson.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah. Um, actually...

Sandra McGrath I do remember.

Peter Kingston Yeah, I don't know whether Gavin was in those. I'm just trying to think of, um...

Sandra McGrath Think of the table at the Taiping.

Peter Kingston Yeah. Uh, yeah, let me think.

Sandra McGrath Everyone drinking wine, and someone...

Peter Kingston Oh, yes, everyone drinking wine. Um... Terry Stanton? Jeez, isn't it terrible? The mind just goes blank about who would have been at those lunches, and, you know, they were quite terrific. Maybe someone will overlap with them, you know what I mean? Did you go to those Sunday lunches?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. Yeah, sure. The Sunday lunches. And this would have all been in the six, '60s, '70s?

Peter Kingston This would... Yes, early '70s.

Sandra McGrath Early '70s.

Peter Kingston And then, of course, there'd be all the excitement of the opening of the gallery, you know, helping Brett get his show organized, and, um... Um...

Sandra McGrath I tried to get Ken this morning, I couldn't.

Peter Kingston I saw a letter he wrote to Fran, and said that he can't remember too much.

Sandra McGrath Did you? Yeah, it is weird, isn't it?

Peter Kingston Maybe he's, you know... Oh, I know, no, now I know what it was. A lot of paintings were burnt in the fire, that was sad. You know, his fire.

Sandra McGrath Was it? Yeah. Yeah. What do you mean, the letter to Fran said that he couldn't remember very much?

Peter Kingston He said that he couldn't help Fran too much, you know, that...

Sandra McGrath What did Fran want to do?

Peter Kingston Um, what she's doing, helping curate the show...

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston ...the art gallery, yeah. Um...

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's good, I didn't know that.

Peter Kingston You should go and see Fran.

Sandra McGrath I'm going to, I'm going to ring her this afternoon. In fact, I'm going to try...

Peter Kingston Stay at the, um, with her? Well, we stayed at the Railway Hotel across the road, which was marvelous, $15.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I'm going to ask if I can come up and, and stay.

Peter Kingston Mandy flew, which was good.

Sandra McGrath I think I'm going to fly.

Peter Kingston Yeah.

Sandra McGrath She doesn't know this, but I'm going to ask if I can come up.

Peter Kingston Yeah, I think that'd be nice, you know. She's got a lot to say.

Sandra McGrath I want to see her.

Peter Kingston Oh, no, she's got a lot to say. Mmm. So, I'll get that photo of Brett and, Brett and Fran when they were kids.

Sandra McGrath Now, that's... we've... I want to go... where were you? You were talking about Sundays at...

Peter Kingston Sunday lunches, yeah. Um... And Bundanon. We did Bundanon, didn't we?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. That was, what date was that, Bundanon? Yeah.

Peter Kingston So, um... Would you like a coffee? I'll just put a coffee on, you know.

Sandra McGrath Yeah, I'd love a... Yeah, very good. Great. We're talking about, uh, this etching that, uh...

Peter Kingston Yes, Brett, Brett came in and saw me, uh, colouring an etching, and he grabbed it from me and, uh, he coloured it the way he'd like to have it. And, uh, once again, that the astonishing thing to see in Brett was the concentration in him, the way he'd sit at something and for hours, or, uh, for as long as it'd take, whether it was a drawing or a painting. It was just, he'd sit at it. You know, you, when did, did you ever see him work? He'd just, uh...

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston I mean, I work and then I wander off a bit. It's terrible, it's, um...

Sandra McGrath Go make coffee or something.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah, yeah. He never moved. He never moved.

Sandra McGrath He never moved.

Peter Kingston And, of course, I suppose that went into everything in his life. Everything was, when it was on, whichever bit of his life he was onto, he was onto it, wasn't he? It just shows you can't... You've got to do it yourself, everything, haven't you? You know? But these days, everyone has a little camera, don't they? You know?

Sandra McGrath Do you use video?

Peter Kingston No, no, I have a camera. I take lots of photos. Um...

Sandra McGrath The Bundanoon and Carcoar and Bathurst and all the places he painted, they're on the way.

Peter Kingston Yes, yes, they were. And I went to that um show on the Mid- Midwest that Fran put on at the uh Orange Regional Gallery, and that was fascinating just to see the way he looks at uh... Just the way to see Brett looks at things. You'd look at the same thing that he looks at. That's something the film could have done, actually. Could have shown us, you know, the scene, and then what Brett Brett did.

Sandra McGrath That's true. Could have.

Peter Kingston 'Cause that's always fascinating with Van Gogh, isn't it? When you look at, you know, a bridge and then what he does to it, you know?

Sandra McGrath A film could have... Well, we can't cry over spilt...

Peter Kingston Well, at least that other film was made by Featherstone. I thought that was pretty good.

Sandra McGrath I haven't seen that.

Peter Kingston Oh, I've got that, too.

Sandra McGrath Have you? I'd love to borrow that from you.

Peter Kingston Yeah. I've got an actually pretty good

Sandra McGrath I should...

Peter Kingston tape. But I'll say this tape: somebody said to Brett, "How are you, Brett?" and he said, "Better than that." He was always on the hunt against mediocrity, always for the uh, you know, in everything. He made everyone try harder. When you were with Brett, you always tried a bit harder, but he could embarrass you because uh one felt one couldn't rise to the uh... You know? Isn't his voice wonderful, that lovely tone in his voice, you know, that lovely warm sort of... He never um Actually, I would I I'd like you to talk to Jan Cork. She she knows Brett uh. She's he's done a beautiful portrait of her. She lives in the flats over there.

Sandra McGrath Oh, really? I'd love to.

Peter Kingston She's not home today, but I'll I'll give you her number,

Sandra McGrath Okay.

Peter Kingston and if you had a chat on the phone thought you might like to talk more. But she's very she is very fond of him, and she's very good with words, you know? So...

Sandra McGrath Oh, you don't have to be good with words.

Peter Kingston No, well no, well she sort of um... Ah, but Brett, gee...

Sandra McGrath Tell me about this time, that in recent times, when you went uh painting with him and going to different places. Tell me the places, actual episodes that you did in, say, the last five years or so.

Peter Kingston Right. Well...

Sandra McGrath Do you have a diary?

Peter Kingston Uh no. I've got this book here.

Sandra McGrath I see. It's so hard to find put dates to events.

Peter Kingston Well, we just went on many occasions in the last few years, but there was one at Millthorpe. There. There's a um... I've just laid out these on the floor. There's a little abstract he'd done at Millthorpe. That's about a year ago.

Sandra McGrath Gee, that's a lovely picture.

Peter Kingston Isn't that beautiful? That's two two sheets of hardboard.

Sandra McGrath Is is this Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston Mhm. Beautiful.

Sandra McGrath Isn't that beautiful?

Peter Kingston And there's a willow tree he did down the road.

Sandra McGrath He's keen on willow trees.

Peter Kingston Oh, that's uh... Oh, that's an etching I did of Brett with his glasses. In a hat.

Sandra McGrath I might use one of those, too.

Peter Kingston Oh, that's a drawing I did of Brett. See the two faces?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. That's good.

Peter Kingston You like that?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston I've got the original in there. Nice, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath Was he clean when you were up at Millthorpe? Was he on drugs when you were uh...

Peter Kingston Millthorpe?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, at Millthorpe.

Peter Kingston No, he was trying to get off heroin, but of course he always drank whisky to get off it, because it was so difficult, you know?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston It's the only time in my life that Brett has told me his troubles. He's never, ever told me his troubles. You know how one always tells one's troubles?

Sandra McGrath Yes.

Peter Kingston He um... He always tried hard, Brett, to to try and make things positive and and um and interesting and... It's hard work, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath It is indeed.

Peter Kingston But um he he started drinking Glenfiddich whisky the He was in bed a lot of the time, because he was in, you know, so uncomfortable. But in the evening he started drinking Glenfiddich whisky, and he said, "I'm frightened, you know, I'm frightened." And he was angry with me, you know, in that I couldn't help him, because one's so used to him being a tower of strength, you know?

Sandra McGrath And you're also used to him being in control.

Peter Kingston That's right! But I'll never forget him saying, "I'm frightened, I'm frightened." And um... Why couldn't I help him? You know, it's terrible, isn't it? So um...

Sandra McGrath That's asking for help, isn't it? What do you think he was frightened of?

Peter Kingston Frightened of dying. Just and absolutely.

Sandra McGrath Do you that Do you think that's what he meant?

Peter Kingston Oh, god, yes. He knew it was soon.

Sandra McGrath Now, when were you talking about this, though?

Peter Kingston This would have been eight months ago,

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's soon.

Peter Kingston last May. Yeah.

Sandra McGrath And that was when you were at Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston Millthorpe. I just think he was worn out by the the cycle of coming down and going up, and coming down and going up, you know, and... I really do think Brett's problems began and end with heroin. I do. But that's naive, isn't it? Where does one's problems begin and end? But um...

Sandra McGrath What else did he say that last that Millthorpe trip?

Peter Kingston Um he told me I'd left my run too late. I was doing an oil painting, and he came up and grabbed it and swirled it around and did magic with it. And of course, when he'd gone, I've changed it all again. I should have left it, what he'd done. Instead of the scene uh that I was trying to do, he created it out of his head. He got the gist of the river, and then put a huge rock in the middle of the river and had all the water flowing around it. Did all with his fingers and brushes. It was marvellous to behold. He said, "You've left your run too late." He said, "I was painting when I was 14." He said um, "You've got to use oils, you know. If you're going to use oils, you don't use them all turpsy like that, you know, like watercolours. If you use oils, you use oils, you know?" And he was always good, whatever medium he worked in, he knew it exactly. Whether it was a silkscreen print, he knew exactly the process. He knew which images would be good as silkscreens, what'd be good as etchings, what'd be good as lithographs. And um all his work shows that, you know, that he that he understood

Sandra McGrath The medium.

Peter Kingston the medium, always. Yeah. He always understood it. And...

Sandra McGrath ...about your last time at Millthorpe, it was in May?

Peter Kingston May. And he'd asked me to come up there because he wanted to dry out from, he wanted some company while he tried to dry out from heroin once again. And um, we did some...

Sandra McGrath Did you drive up?

Peter Kingston I drove up, yes, he flew up. So I met him up there, and...

Sandra McGrath So where... this is Frannie's house you're at?

Peter Kingston This is Fran's house in, in Millthorpe. And um, I took, luckily I took some etching plates with me. I had six etching plates and I did an etching of him and he did one of me and it was just like, it was almost completing the cycle with Arthur Boyd.

Sandra McGrath Yes. That's the one he did of me which I'm not so fond of. I think it's not nearly

Peter Kingston as good as the, as the um, other drawings, you know, the charcoal drawings.

Sandra McGrath No, I think it's a bit static, but...

Peter Kingston You wouldn't look at that and say Brett did it, would you?

Sandra McGrath No, you wouldn't. But you know, it almost goes back to the drawings he did in the soup kitchens.

Peter Kingston Really? That's interesting, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston That was one of the last things he signed.

Sandra McGrath This one?

Peter Kingston Yeah. And uh, he did a willow. That was the last etching.

Sandra McGrath Well, I think we have to think about using that in the book, as well, Arthur.

Peter Kingston Um, okay. Well, I'll, I'll try...

Sandra McGrath Is there anything last, because they're important.

Peter Kingston Let me find that um, upstairs. I've got it upstairs.

Sandra McGrath Okay, don't do it now.

Peter Kingston I won't do it now. So, I'm trying to go back to that time at Millthorpe, which was sad because I felt...

Sandra McGrath What did you feel then? How many days were you there?

Peter Kingston Two days. I felt very frustrated that I couldn't help him, because uh, one has to, uh, I mean, how do you help someone who's helped you so much? Uh, I mean, if anyone had any trouble or anything like that, Brett would always be the one with all suggestions and all offering all the most um, good help. But how does one help him?

Sandra McGrath And that was always a bit the problem with any relationship with Brett, was that I think...

Peter Kingston He moved on, didn't he, to the next thing?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. And also he was always, in a sense, always so far ahead of you, whatever your position was and whatever you were doing.

Peter Kingston Yeah. I feel that, too.

Sandra McGrath To you, that's all?

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah. Not really.

Sandra McGrath No, I don't think he was saying goodbye.

Peter Kingston I don't think he wanted to die, though. I think he... I think the critics got into him. I think they got at him: John McDonald, Terence Maloon, and uh, Joanna Mendelssohn.

Sandra McGrath See, I wasn't here for that. Can you tell me a bit about that?

Peter Kingston I've got a, a tape of her talking.

Sandra McGrath Oh, really?

Peter Kingston Yeah, I'll lend you that, too.

Sandra McGrath That would be fantastic. Put on the tape for me your just, feelings about the funeral and what it was like.

Peter Kingston Oh.

Sandra McGrath Uh, you were one of the pallbearers, weren't you?

Peter Kingston Yes. Well, the first thing I was amazed at was how heavy the coffin was. I was quite astonished because I didn't think Brett was uh, such a big guy. That's sort of um, my, my first amazement.

Sandra McGrath You haven't been a pallbearer before?

Peter Kingston No. Maybe there are, maybe it's... But I thought if, I thought if um, I thought that was the first thing that shocked me. And, but I thought the funeral was good in that um, it wasn't uh, taken over by somebody like uh, who, a minister, or um, anyone uh, who was being paid to do it, or any... It was good the way we just had use of the space, I thought that was good.

Sandra McGrath Who selected the music?

Peter Kingston Um, oh they all got together and selected that, yeah. But um, I thought Arkie's talk was extraordinary, and I thought it was uh, unique, and uh, I thought that she was, she, at some stage she created some person who wasn't even born in Australia.

Sandra McGrath What do you mean?

Peter Kingston Well, she had this English accent and she was acting.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I see.

Peter Kingston Yeah, she became an actress, you know. And uh, so you had to see this, the other talk she did at the art gallery, which she was very moving and terrific.

Sandra McGrath I missed it.

Peter Kingston So I mean, I think she was incredible what she did, Arkie, to actually talk and then talk at the art gallery, which I, I found very rewarding.

Sandra McGrath I had tears pouring down my face at the art gallery.

Peter Kingston Really? Oh, it was fantastic. But at the, were you at the funeral?

Sandra McGrath No, I was in Fiji, that's why.

Peter Kingston Oh, in Fiji, yes. That's right, I wondered where you were. But um, the funeral, uh, William Yang has taken a fantastic photo inside the chapel. You must have that in the book.

Sandra McGrath Oh, well, we will. We should.

Peter Kingston Got his number?

Sandra McGrath I think I do.

Peter Kingston But he took it as, you put one on one page and one on the other, he took two shots with Arkie talking, and the coffin's in the middle. He took one shot that way and one shot that way, so there's a crease down the middle, you know what I mean? Perfect for a book. You must get that photo.

Sandra McGrath We will. I think we will.

Peter Kingston And um...

Sandra McGrath We're using a lot of his photographs in the book.

Peter Kingston Oh, good. Make sure you ask for that photo.

Sandra McGrath Right.

Peter Kingston And um...

Sandra McGrath And you spoke?

Peter Kingston Yeah, I spoke badly. I, I thought that um...

Sandra McGrath Well, what I could hear on the tape, you didn't speak badly at all. You spoke well.

Peter Kingston Oh, well, that's good. I, I just felt uh... I was going to tell a, a funny story, but I, I don't think it would have been appreciated.

Sandra McGrath Tell me now on the tape.

Peter Kingston Huh?

Sandra McGrath Tell the tape the funny story.

Peter Kingston Oh, I don't want this ending up in the book.

Sandra McGrath Well, tell it anyway, just so I get an idea.

Peter Kingston You mightn't appreciate this either. Brett had the uh, ability to embarrass one, you know. And uh, we were up at Millthorpe and he, Fran brought the sons home, the sons, you know, uh, her son and his friends from the, the school, these lovely young men. And in their coats, and their ties, and they, they all had some drinks, you know, and they got a bit disheveled, and they're sitting at the table, we're all sitting at the table. There's Daniel and two or three of his friends, and Fran, and Brett who didn't want anyone to be there. He was being a bit grumpy, you know. Anyway, Brett was telling this long, involved story, blah blah blah blah blah blah, they were loving it, lapping it up. Suddenly he said, "Which one do you want, Kingo?" I mean, I just went bright scarlet. And this is, you know, this is everyone was engrossed in this story and suddenly he came out with that, you know. I mean, that was Brett to me, and that's what I wanted to tell at the funeral.

Sandra McGrath I think it's very good.

Peter Kingston Do you think I should have told it?

Sandra McGrath Doesn't matter now.

Peter Kingston I mean, why shouldn't there be mirth coming out of those rooms? Why does it always have to be

Sandra McGrath sadness?

Peter Kingston Yeah, do you know what I mean? I just didn't think it was appropriate, and Beryl probably wouldn't have liked it.

Sandra McGrath It is a funny story.

Peter Kingston It is a funny story, because it, it sums up exactly what Brett did to you.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston He completely pulled the rug on you. And that's where his most successful paintings were, pulling the rug. Don't you think?

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's a very interesting analogy. Yeah.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah. And that, and, and there's nothing more attractive than having the rug pulled on you, is there? Hey?

Sandra McGrath Terrifying.

Peter Kingston It's terrifying, but it makes you feel alive, it makes you adore him, you know? And, and it, and it climbs above all this pretence and crap in society, doesn't it? You know, he's um...

Sandra McGrath Now, what time was this? When was this you were in Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston This was that last May.

Sandra McGrath That's at the same time? I thought you were just there by yourself.

Peter Kingston Yeah, sorry, Fran came for dinner, that's right. She brought dinner over with these lovely friends of Daniel's, and him.

Sandra McGrath But you were staying at Fran's house?

Peter Kingston Yeah, I was staying at Fran's, yeah. She was staying at Bob's, Carol Miller. So she just came and brought dinner and the boys, you see. And that's when Brett said this devastating thing.

Sandra McGrath Who's Bob? Is that her boyfriend?

Peter Kingston Yeah, but it seems to have broken up now. That's the last photo, that's the last time I ever saw Brett. And there's a photo of him there, too. That's at my exhibition.

Sandra McGrath He looks different, too, doesn't he?

Peter Kingston I'll drive you up to the taxi, that's the best thing, yeah.

Sandra McGrath He looks different, doesn't he?

Peter Kingston Yes, he does. Everything's floating and pudgy and, yes, he's lost...

Sandra McGrath You know, when you compare that photograph you're thinking about...

Peter Kingston Yeah.

Sandra McGrath And it's here, too, isn't it?

Peter Kingston Yes, yeah.

Sandra McGrath The sparks have fallen.

Peter Kingston Yes, it's fallen.

Sandra McGrath Something's happened.

Peter Kingston Yeah, I know, I know.

Sandra McGrath It's weird.

Peter Kingston It is, you're right. It's, it's um, dropped, hasn't it? He's lost that...

Sandra McGrath The spark's gone.

Peter Kingston Yeah, spark.

Sandra McGrath Here's another picture. Let me just grab this... Where is it?

Subject Well, they weren't going too fast, nine times out of ten, if you didn't watch what you're doing, you would finish up on the floor. But the idea was, it was like, as we got older, we found out the idea was to spread our hands and our arms out, you know, and up against the wall of it, because it was only five foot round, and go through it like that. That was the whole idea of it, but we enjoyed it. Just turned round with the drum, you know.

Interviewer And this, the whole complex of bars and Slippery Dips and this was called Coney Island?

Subject Yeah. It was great.

Peter Kingston For a fact, I think lavender was the first introduced there.

Sandra McGrath The flower, you mean?

Peter Kingston No, that's the herb. The plant herb, lavender.

Sandra McGrath Do you think it was because it had wild lavender there? Could have been.

Peter Kingston Could have been. No, it could be anything. I've never really got into it, but there must be a reason for it. But most of the places over the north side are named after men.

Sandra McGrath That's true. Yes, it's unusual that way, isn't it?

Peter Kingston Yeah, I was onto it early. I was the first one, I was the first one to ever write an article about it.

Sandra McGrath Did you?

Peter Kingston Look at this, a wonderful drawing of a cricketer, this, too.

Sandra McGrath Yes. Okay, tell me a bit about your last time at Millthorpe. It was in, is it May?

Peter Kingston May. And uh, he'd asked me to come up there because he wanted to dry out. He wanted some company while he was trying to dry out, all right, once again. And um... We did some uh...

Sandra McGrath Did you drive up?

Peter Kingston I drove up, yes. He flew up. So, I met him up there. And uh...

Sandra McGrath So, where... this is Frannie's house you're at?

Peter Kingston This is Fran's house in Millthorpe.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston And um, I took, luckily I took some etching plates with me. I had six etching plates, and uh... I did an etching of him, and he did one of me, and uh, it was just like... It was almost completing the cycle with Arthur Boyd.

Sandra McGrath Yes.

Peter Kingston That's the one he did of me, which I'm not so fond of. I think it's not nearly as good as the, as the um, other drawings, the charcoal drawings.

Sandra McGrath No, he looks a bit static.

Peter Kingston You wouldn't look at that and say Brett did it, would you?

Sandra McGrath No, you wouldn't. But you know, it almost goes back to the drawings he did in the '60s, too.

Peter Kingston Really? That's interesting, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston That was one of the last things he signed.

Sandra McGrath This one?

Peter Kingston Yeah. And uh, he did a willow. That was the last etching.

Sandra McGrath Were there drawings done, can you remember? He was doing drawings?

Peter Kingston Um, okay, well I'll try and...

Sandra McGrath Was there anything the last, that's important?

Peter Kingston Well, let me find that um, upstairs, I've got it upstairs.

Sandra McGrath Can you get it now?

Peter Kingston I'll get it now. So, I'm trying to go back to that time at Millthorpe, which was sad because I felt...

Sandra McGrath What did you feel had been, how many days were you there?

Peter Kingston Two days. I felt very frustrated that I couldn't help him, because uh... one has to uh... I mean, how do you help someone who's helped you so much? Uh... I mean, if anyone had any trouble or anything like that, Brett had always been the one with all the suggestions and all the, offering all the most... um... good help. But how does one help him?

Sandra McGrath Well, that was always a bit the problem with being in a relationship with him, wasn't it?

Peter Kingston He moved on, didn't he, to the next thing?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. And also, he was always, in a sense, always so far ahead of you, whatever he, whatever his issues was and whatever he was doing.

Peter Kingston Yeah.

Sandra McGrath To you, as well.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah. Not really.

Sandra McGrath No, I don't think he was at the same time.

Peter Kingston I don't think he wanted to die, though. I think... I think the critics got him. I think they got him. John McDonald, Terence Maloon, and uh Joanna Mendelssohn.

Sandra McGrath See, I wasn't here for that. Can you tell me a bit about that?

Peter Kingston I've got a a tape of her talking.

Sandra McGrath Oh, really?

Peter Kingston Yeah, I'll put into that, too.

Sandra McGrath I'd love to listen to it. Put on the tape for me your just feelings about the funeral and what it was like.

Peter Kingston Um...

Sandra McGrath You were one of the pallbearers, weren't you?

Peter Kingston Yes. Well, the first thing I was amazed at was how heavy the coffin was. I I was quite astonished, because I didn't think Brett was such a big guy. That's sort of um... my first amazement.

Sandra McGrath Did they have lead pallbearers, or lead...

Peter Kingston No. Maybe there are. Maybe it's... But I thought it, I thought it um... I thought that was the first thing that shocked me. And, but I thought the funeral was good in that um... it wasn't... uh... taken over by somebody like uh... a minister or uh... anyone uh who was being paid to do it, or anything. It was good the way we just had the use of the space. I thought that was good.

Sandra McGrath Who selected the music, do you know?

Peter Kingston Um, oh they all got together and said... But um, I thought Arkie's talk was extraordinary, and I thought it was uh unique. And uh... I thought that she is, she, at some stage she created some person who wasn't even born in Australia. She, oh she had this English accent. She was acting.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I see.

Peter Kingston Yeah, she became an actress in that. And uh... so you had to see the, the other talk she did at the art gallery, which she was very moving, truly moving. So, I mean, I think she was... incredible what she did, Arkie, to actually talk and then talk at the art gallery, which I I found very rewarding.

Sandra McGrath I had tears pouring down my face at the art gallery.

Peter Kingston Really? Oh, it was fantastic. Where did, were you at the funeral?

Sandra McGrath No, I was in Fiji then.

Peter Kingston Oh, in Fiji, yes. That's right, I wondered where you were. But um... the funeral, uh Willie Young has taken a fantastic photo inside the chapel. You must have that in the book. You've got his number?

Sandra McGrath I think I do.

Peter Kingston But he took it as, he took one on one page and one on the other. He took two shots with Arkie talking, and the coffin's in the middle. He took one shot that way and one shot that way, so there's a crease down the middle. You know what I mean? Perfect for a book. You must get that photo.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston And um...

Sandra McGrath We're using a lot of his photos, actually.

Peter Kingston Oh good, make sure you ask for that photo. And um...

Sandra McGrath And you spoke?

Peter Kingston Yeah, I spoke badly, I thought. But uh...

Sandra McGrath Well, what I could hear on the tape, you didn't speak badly. Everyone thought it was...

Peter Kingston Oh, that's good. I I just felt uh... I was going to tell a a funny story, but uh I don't think it would have been appreciated.

Sandra McGrath Tell me now. Go on.

Peter Kingston Huh?

Sandra McGrath Tell it, tell it to the tape, Kingston.

Peter Kingston Oh, I don't want this ending up in the book.

Sandra McGrath Go on, tell it anyway, just so I can have a laugh.

Peter Kingston You might not appreciate it, either. Brett had the um ability to embarrass one, you know, and uh... we were up at Millthorpe, and he Fran brought her son's um... sons, you know, uh her son and his friends from the school, these lovely young men, and in their coats and their ties. They all had some drinks, and then uh... They all got traditional, and were sitting at the table, all sitting at the table. There's Daniel, two or three of his friends, Fran and Brett, who didn't want anyone to be there. He was being a bit gruffy, you know. Anyway, Brett was telling this long, involved story, blah blah blah blah blah blah. They were loving it, lapping it up. Suddenly, he said, "Which one do you want, Kingo?" I mean, I just went bright scarlet, you know. And this is uh, you know, this is Everyone was engrossed in this story, and suddenly he came out with that, you know. I mean, that that was Brett to me, and that's what I wanted to tell at the funeral.

Sandra McGrath I think it would be very good.

Peter Kingston You think I should have told it?

Sandra McGrath Well, the family wouldn't...

Peter Kingston I mean, why shouldn't there be mirth coming out of those buildings? Why does it always have to be...

Sandra McGrath Sad?

Peter Kingston Yeah, do you know what I mean? I just didn't think it was appropriate, and Beryl probably wouldn't have laughed. It is a funny story, because it it sums up exactly what Brett did to you.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston Completely pulled the rug on you. And that's where his most successful paintings worked, pulling the rug. Don't you think?

Sandra McGrath The flower, you mean?

Peter Kingston No, the herb. Well, a flower, yeah. Herb, lavender.

Sandra McGrath Do you think it was because it had wild lavender there?

Peter Kingston Could have been. Could have been. Nah, it could be anything. I've never really got into it, but there must be a reason for it. And most of the places over the north side are named after men.

Sandra McGrath That's true. Yes, it's unusual that way, isn't it?

Peter Kingston Yeah. Nearly all of them. But as for Lavender, I cannot - through history, I cannot

Sandra McGrath place anybody by the name of Lavender. I'll have to find out, I guess.

Peter Kingston Um, first met Brett, Garry Shead said that we should make a movie about Brett Whiteley because he would be perfect for making a movie about. And I spent the next four years really living with Brett and Wendy. And the movie sort of fell by the wayside, although remarkably enough it actually was made. But it was such a super cool film that hardly was the camera ever turned on Brett, and hardly was ever the microphone recording Brett, so that was very cool in those days. And um, but unfortunately it was too cool, the film. And uh, but it exists and um, I can give it to you on video. Um, I was very embarrassed by it the other day because it is a victim of that period of um

Sandra McGrath Do you remember what that period is?

Peter Kingston It was the '70s, wasn't it?

Sandra McGrath People don't know dates.

Peter Kingston Yes, yes. I think it was early '70s, 1970, 1971, '72. And we got the first film grant that was ever issued, and they were thrilled to have a film made about Brett. But there was no comment about the film when it was made, of course. It wasn't the sort of...

Sandra McGrath Listen, we were making a film down at Bundanon.

Peter Kingston Yes, it never went in the... Yes, it was meant to go... it didn't go into it, unfortunately, that bit.

Sandra McGrath Where is that bit?

Peter Kingston Look, I went to my mother's. I can't find the outtakes, you know, because that's very sad. I mean, even though the film was super cool.

Sandra McGrath I've just got to cut this out.

Peter Kingston I'll tell you what I've got, which is rather wonderful. Remember the day we visited Arthur Boyd?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston At his other place.

Sandra McGrath Riversdale.

Peter Kingston Yeah, Riversdale. And do you know Arthur handed out those etching plates?

Sandra McGrath That's right.

Peter Kingston I'll show you the etching I did of that day.

Sandra McGrath Just wait, this is an etching...

Peter Kingston This is an etching done in 1972, and we all visited Arthur Boyd and his wife Yvonne at the Shoalhaven...

Sandra McGrath Riversdale.

Peter Kingston Riversdale, and there were the McGrath family and the Whiteleys and myself, and Arthur had just built this brand-new house, and it was all looking a bit raw, and he handed out all these little etching plates to everybody and some nails, so everybody ended up doing an etching. But I went up to the studio with Arthur and Brett later, and Brett did six etchings of Arthur and Arthur did about half a dozen of him, and I luckily did an etching of Brett doing an etching of Arthur, which is sitting in front of us now. So I gave one of these to the Art Gallery, and I got a lovely letter from Edmund Capon about it.

Sandra McGrath Can we use one of those in the book?

Peter Kingston Please, I would be thrilled and honoured.

Sandra McGrath Oh, well, fantastic.

Peter Kingston Thrilled and honoured.

Sandra McGrath Oh, well, fantastic.

Peter Kingston Thrilled and honoured. You can take that today if you'd like.

Sandra McGrath Well, that would be fantastic. Again, I'll cut this off when I'm talking.

Peter Kingston And um, that began this... this uh... This just started me off on doing doing etchings, because uh I sent one to Arthur Boyd, and I got a very nice letter back from him, which said... "Dear Peter, thank you for the etching you did of me with Brett all those years ago at Riversdale on the Shoalhaven. It's very acute. Best wishes for 200 more etchings. Yours, Arthur." So that's very nice, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath Very acute.

Peter Kingston So anyway, it would be good to hunt up the other etchings that were done on that day.

Sandra McGrath Because we're going to put black-and-white into the book in places, but in the form of photographs that uh good photographs that people have done, things like this. So it's going to be like a little homage book as well, a big homage.

Peter Kingston Yes, I must say that's one of the favourite photos I ever took of Brett. A little bit out of focus, though, but that's up at Hill End. It's rather beautiful, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath That loneness again.

Peter Kingston Yes, yes. Is there a dog there? I don't know if there's even a dog there.

Sandra McGrath No, just him in the gum trees and the muddy water. That's fantastic, Pip.

Peter Kingston I'm sure.

Sandra McGrath Look through these pictures and just tell me a bit about the pictures.

Peter Kingston Yes, yes, I will. This is um...

Sandra McGrath Tell me what we're looking at.

Peter Kingston This was at Hill End. This is when Brett did that Hill End painting and it fell off the roof of the car coming along the Bells Line Road. It came screeching off the roof of the car and it narrowly missed a couple of other cars.

Sandra McGrath What Now, what time was that?

Peter Kingston Now that would have been about four years ago.

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's all? So 1990?

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah. '90. Yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath 1990, you think?

Peter Kingston I think that would have been it, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And you and Brett went to Hill End?

Peter Kingston Yes, we went to Hill End, and we stayed with Michael Driscoll, and, um...

Sandra McGrath Is that where he lives now?

Peter Kingston No, he lives at Gulgong now. And Brett did this wonderful painting, and it was really more of a model of Hill End. It was like a big relief map of Hill End, and he was gouging it. It was like a very thick, about four inches deep, the painting. There it is there.

Sandra McGrath Oh my God.

Peter Kingston And he was gouging gouging into it, so these must be the only photos taken, or they would be the only photos taken of it being being made. I hope these are, you know, if they're of interest to you, they're of good quality enough. Oh yeah, and um, oh, there's the Haefliger house.

Sandra McGrath Who's the Haefliger house? Yeah, Paul Haefliger and Jean Bellette. Yeah. Where is that? That's Hill End. Did you ever stay there? No, but there's a chance

Peter Kingston of staying there. Here's more of the Hill End painting. It was sold about six months ago.

Sandra McGrath What was it called? It was called Hill End.

Peter Kingston Just Hill End? Yeah, but I'll tell you why it was so fascinating, because it had, that's a real brick, a real brick just, you know, he gouged that out and then sunk a real sandstock brick in it, you know, and around here the gully, the gully gouged in there. I I really think that was unique, the way he did those sort of paintings.

Sandra McGrath That is, I've never seen... You've never seen that? And and then he was able to pour resin into that and make it like that

Peter Kingston brown water, you know, that's in the bottom. Oh, I see, sort of... Yes, and there were little briar bushes and rabbits, and a gold nugget even was stuck on it.

Sandra McGrath Who bought it? How lucky... I don't know, it was sold through Christie's. Did he have to sell it? Wendy sold it. Can I just borrow one of these, have you got a negative of any of these? No, but I'll tell you what, if you want to use

Peter Kingston anything, I will have a negative search, you know what I mean? Yeah. I'll tell you what I'd like to do, I don't know whether I'd like to, I'd rather give you the whole book than the photos, do you know what I mean? Yeah. Somebody had a lend of these before and the fact that they got the whole book meant that it all came back to me, you know. Exactly, instead of people... Yeah, go flip through

Sandra McGrath the book, okay, and jar your memory about it. Yeah, okay, um, so did you get some more of these? I'd like to buy one of these. Yeah, I have, I've got another one. Sure. Yeah, can I buy it today? Sure, sure. I'll give you a cheque.

Peter Kingston Okay, or you can buy that one that you're taking. Yeah. We can guarantee that. Um, yeah, that's one of the best things I've ever done. I hope I can do it as well again, because, see, I wasn't really etching, you know what I mean? I wasn't an artist, so beginner's luck.

Sandra McGrath I know, I know. That's what it is.

Peter Kingston You see too much when you're an artist, I think. You get too many influences. Here's some rather nice... Brett always had dogs, and there was... Tell me about Brett's dogs. That's Booga, and they're always small dogs, and they're always cross cross-breeds.

Sandra McGrath I thought you meant crosses and angels.

Peter Kingston No, no, no. When I met him, he had a dog called Bag, who was a silky cross with a cairn terrier, and then there was Reason, who was a sausage dog cross with a cairn terrier. Everything seemed to be cross with a cairn terrier. And then there was Black and White, who was actually a mongrel fox terrier, and he didn't last too long. Sometimes the dogs only lasted a few weeks, and then other dogs have run their whole course. And there was Booga, and then there was... and the dog that lasted the shortest time was a dog called Quickly. It didn't last more than a week or so. So I'll give you that, Sandra.

Sandra McGrath Which one is this one?

Peter Kingston That one's Reason, Sense and Reason. No, Quickly was the last dog.

Sandra McGrath Was it Booga, Sense and Reason and Quickly? Is that the...

Peter Kingston I'd say it was Bag, and then it was Black and White, and then it was Sense and Reason, and then Quickly.

Sandra McGrath How was that?

Peter Kingston They both worked at Fox Films.

Sandra McGrath What did they do at Fox Films? Tell me a bit about Clem Whiteley.

Peter Kingston Clem was in the advertising at Fox Films and then Hoyts.

Sandra McGrath What do you do in advertising?

Peter Kingston Well, I think it's layouts.

Sandra McGrath He didn't sell advertising space?

Peter Kingston No, no. He did the artistic. I'm not sure if he was the artist, though. Probably he was the artist. Well, I think it's layouts and, um...

Sandra McGrath He didn't sell advertising space.

Peter Kingston No, no, he did the artistic... I'm not sure if he was the artist, though. Probably he was the artist. And, um...

Sandra McGrath So he did... You imagine he did.

Peter Kingston I imagine he did. Do you know where he met Beryl?

Sandra McGrath Layout. Layout. I'm just saying what he did, not where he met Beryl.

Peter Kingston No, wait a minute, Beryl... I don't know what I should tell you. Beryl was they were working at the Liberty Theatre.

Sandra McGrath Don't quote me. No, no.

Peter Kingston And he was the manager and she was an usherette.

Sandra McGrath I knew that.

Peter Kingston Did you know that?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston Yeah. I think Beryl might hide it.

Sandra McGrath Frank McDonald's mother was an usherette in a film, too.

Peter Kingston Oh, really?

Sandra McGrath In Sydney.

Peter Kingston Well, I think it was quite an elegant thing, wasn't it?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. With real gloves and everything.

Peter Kingston That's right. I think the Prince Edward always had a better, a more posh usherette, too.

Sandra McGrath Which theatre was it?

Peter Kingston It was the Liberty.

Sandra McGrath The Liberty. Was it called the Liberty?

Peter Kingston Liberty. Metro.

Sandra McGrath The Metro Liberty.

Peter Kingston Metro. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Liberty.

Sandra McGrath Was it called the Liberty Metro?

Peter Kingston The Metro Liberty. Metro. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Liberty in Pitt Street.

Sandra McGrath Do you ever remember going there?

Peter Kingston I do.

Sandra McGrath Tell me about it.

Peter Kingston Well, it was a very narrow theatre, and it had red velvet seats. The Metro theatres were cut above the other theatres because they had red velvet seats. I always remember that. But it was a very plush theatre.

Sandra McGrath I just want to make sure I'm getting this, because this is real history. You're making history. Talking history. Okay, the theatre world, tell me about movie theatres in this town.

Peter Kingston Well, see that huge book there? That's amazing, that's full of cuttings from the movie world. See that really thick book there?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston That's from 20th Century Fox. And the movie world was... Unfortunately, we didn't have an Australian film industry at the time, so all the films were imported from England or America. But it was all very glamorous, with all the openings and premieres and things like that, and um, I think Clem worked at uh, I think he was the manager of the Liberty, that's right, and uh, that's where he met Beryl, and then also he then he went on and became advertising uh chief of Fox and and um Hoyts. The advertising was to do with layouts and artwork and things like that. And tell me, you're about to tell me something that you said Oh, I won't put that on the tape recorder, okay? Still going? Can you cut that off?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, sure. I think that guy's right. I mean, that guy could be lying, too.

Peter Kingston Oh, absolutely. Oh, there's that beautiful platypus painting. You know that one?

Sandra McGrath Oh, yeah. That's the one that was up at, um... It's unfortunately prophetic.

Peter Kingston Isn't it?

Sandra McGrath With the whisky bottle. Was that the one he did at, well... Mill... Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston No, no. This is a really old painting.

Sandra McGrath No, no. The one he did...

Peter Kingston Yeah. Ulawarri called it, didn't he?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. Yeah. No, no, the one he did.

Peter Kingston Yeah, Ulawarri called it, didn't he?

Sandra McGrath No, he did up at Glenrock.

Peter Kingston Oh, Glenrock. Could be.

Sandra McGrath That's the Glenrock picture.

Peter Kingston I'm not sure. No, I don't know if that is, because Tim Storrier was talking about that on TV, about the cow pat.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston No, that's another one. This has got the platypus once again gouged in. You know, he's cut the shape and stuck the platypus in. You just stop me when you...

Sandra McGrath No, okay.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah, sorry.

Sandra McGrath You just take a picture and talk about it.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And if you can, date it. I mean, we're in real trouble if we can't find dates, you know.

Peter Kingston That's not good.

Sandra McGrath Talk about this.

Peter Kingston Oh, actually, I don't like that.

Sandra McGrath What?

Peter Kingston I don't like that.

Sandra McGrath No, but talk about the frangipani. That's all.

Peter Kingston Oh, yes. He adored the frangipani. He always loved the frangipani. And a lot of the paintings were just giant frangipanis.

Sandra McGrath Why do you think he did that?

Peter Kingston It was so exotic. Sydney. It was a very Sydney sort of thing. It made Sydney different that Sydney had frangipani, even though it had a mild climate. It was so exotic. giant frangipanis. Why do you think he did? It was so exotic. It was very Sydney sort of thing. It made Sydney different that Sydney had frangipani, even though it had a mild climate. And I suppose they must have grown around Longueville and all those places. And he had a beautiful brooch, an had a beautiful brooch, enamel brooch made of a frangipani. And so it really did run a lot through his work, a frangipani. Um, I'll just, uh... [Sandra McGrath] Sorry, it's— [Peter Kingston] No, no, no, I just tasted... [Sandra McGrath] How do you feel about Brett, Brett Whiteley? [Peter Kingston] Well, I I think the first thing I saw of Brett that I I loved was the zoo drawings that were done in London, of the hyenas and, and I think they were silkscreen prints. And, um, I remember Neil Burley and I were going to save up and buy one together, because they were showing at the Terry Clune Gallery. That was the first time I really took notice of Brett's work, which was his drawing. And, um, to go out with Brett when he was drawing was marvellous, because you'd sit in front of a a rather normal sort of scene, and, um, Brett would, uh, do something quite uh, um, amazing with with, uh, with his enormous, uh, resources of being able to see things differently than most people. And, um, making things fresh, and and, uh, exciting, and, um, it's just hard to put it into words. But, uh, um, Sorry, I'm... [Sandra McGrath] That's all right. [Peter Kingston] Um, but we did get on terribly well. I'll I'll read you a letter he wrote me. [Sandra McGrath] Oh, I'd love you to read it. [Peter Kingston] I've get my things all over the place. [Sandra McGrath] You're a wonderful scrapbook. This is a scrapbook. [Peter Kingston] Oh, my. My jax. I can't... Well, here it is. This is written on Brett's new notepaper, Endlessnessism Proprietary Limited, and evidently I was to receive the first, um, note on this paper. "Dear Kingo, this is my new letterhead, and I thought, who can I break the page and send one to, considering we live next door and talk about everything, so I really don't have anything to say, but it is nice to feel out the paper and nice to welcome you home from your triumphs on Cork Street. Yours, Brett. It is great that the—they printed this on tough paper so I can do ink drawings and cut through the page without cutting through the page, as it were. The embossing of the matches should have been a bit more pronounced. There." Isn't that a good letter?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. Yes. Wonderful. I'd love to get a photostat of that, just to show. Yeah. Can we do that?

Peter Kingston Sure. Sure. I mean, there aren't... I think we can... No, I'll get a photostat of it, okay?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, don't don't take...

Peter Kingston Once they start coming out...

Sandra McGrath No, don't do that.

Peter Kingston ...they start to deteriorate. But would you like me to go through all my photos and find all the photos of Brett?

Sandra McGrath Yes, please.

Peter Kingston Okay. I'll I'll do that. Because I've got many, many, many, many, many photos of Brett.

Sandra McGrath Have you got any more letters from him?

Peter Kingston No, that's my only letter from Brett.

Sandra McGrath I've only got one, too.

Peter Kingston You've only got one, too. And a lot have been lost, you know, that Fran had stolen from from, uh, her house at Mangrove Mountain. All the letters from him to his father have been stolen.

Sandra McGrath Who would have done that?

Peter Kingston I'd... Well, I'd say people go up there and stay, and, um, I mean, sketchbooks have been found in in Perth, that have been ripped apart. I don't think the sketchbooks should be touched, do you? [Sandra McGrath] No. [Peter Kingston] I saw a Francis Lymburner sketchbook the other day, and I don't think pages should be torn out of that. [Sandra McGrath] No. No. No. It's It's tempting, isn't it? But, uh, I think they get their power [Sandra McGrath] From being in a book, yeah. [Peter Kingston] In fact, it'd be nice to publish one of Brett's sketchbooks. [Sandra McGrath] Would be wonderful. [Peter Kingston] As a sketchbook.

Sandra McGrath I think this company I'm working for would love to do it, maybe in conjunction with the book, if anyone can find one.

Peter Kingston A sketchbook? [Sandra McGrath] Mm. I know a couple.

Sandra McGrath Do you?

Peter Kingston Well, they're at the studio. I'll just show you a drawing that Brett did at Millthorpe.

Sandra McGrath Where's Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston Millthorpe is between Bathurst and Orange, in the central west.

Sandra McGrath M-I-L- [Peter Kingston] M-I-double-L- [Sandra McGrath] Uh-huh.

Peter Kingston -T-H-O-R-P-E.

Sandra McGrath And what's at Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston Millthorpe is an old gold mining town, and, um...

Sandra McGrath How would you describe it?

Peter Kingston It's a very English, just like an English country sort of, uh, very village-y, with, uh, lovely verandahs, and a bit of a ghost town. Everything's moved on. But, uh, very peaceful, and and, um, uh... [Sandra McGrath] Where did he stay there? [Peter Kingston] In Fran's little house. [Sandra McGrath] Uh-huh. [Peter Kingston] In Millthorpe. Anyway, he, um, he did these charcoal drawings of me in his sketchbook. He said he's always found me hard to draw. And he suddenly dashed these off, which I thought were rather terrific. There they are. I got up very early and photographed them out of the sketchbook because I thought goodness knows what's— He must have liked them because he immediately stamped them. [Sandra McGrath] Yeah, he stamped them. [Peter Kingston] And, uh, there's my finger, which is his trademark drawing things, isn't it? [Sandra McGrath] Yes. Yeah. [Peter Kingston] The way the charcoal—isn't that lovely, the charcoal? And that one... [Sandra McGrath] Oh, that's lovely. [Peter Kingston] That's a good one, isn't it? [Sandra McGrath] Yeah, that's a very good one. I think that's the better one. [Peter Kingston] And look at the dog. Isn't it wonderful, the way he drew the dog? That's probably the better one, isn't it? [Sandra McGrath] Well,

Sandra McGrath I like the I like these two the best, don't you?

Peter Kingston Yes. Yes. And I'll show you an etching he actually did of me, which isn't isn't nearly as interesting, but, uh...

Sandra McGrath Could we put those etchings in the book, these photographs of the etchings? We'd love to do that.

Peter Kingston Where would they be? [Sandra McGrath] No, we can I'm sure this would be good enough.

Sandra McGrath Yeah. [Peter Kingston] Oh, good. Let's go back and tell me what you know about Clem. Let's go back to Clem.

Peter Kingston Clem. I never met Clem. He died when he was 56, three years older than Brett, which is staggering, isn't it? And, uh, Clem, uh, my mum knew Clem, and she used to go to parties at, uh, my mum and dad went to the parties at, um, Percy Kingston and Betty Kingston at Longueville, and, um, Brett used to always be in his dressing gown helping behind the bar.

Sandra McGrath Go back a bit on this. Your mother and Daddy went to parties at? [Peter Kingston] At Clem and Beryl's. [Sandra McGrath] Oh, at Clem and Beryl's. [Peter Kingston] Yeah, at at Longueville. Now tell me the name of your parents. [Peter Kingston] Betty. [Sandra McGrath] Betty. [Peter Kingston] And and, uh, Percy Kingston. And your father was a? [Peter Kingston] He was the, uh, New South Wales manager of 20th Century Fox. New South Wales manager? [Peter Kingston] Yep. I'll try and find that photo of Clem and Dad at Luna Park. Now just keep telling me about your father, uh, the Kingstons' relationship with Clem and Beryl quietly.

Peter Kingston Oh, well, it was really just through through through, uh, the movie world, the American movie world.

Sandra McGrath Tell me about the American movie world out here.

Peter Kingston The American movie world, well, there was no TV, of course, and movies were the big thing. And there was, as I said before, there was no Australian movie industry, so it was all English and American film, and, um, there was a lot of it. And, uh, I'll ask Mum a few things about Clem, but I don't... I just remember Brett helping out in his dressing gown at the party.

Sandra McGrath What is your mother's telephone number? May I have it? [Peter Kingston] Yeah, yeah, 337- 337- [Peter Kingston] -1685. Would she mind if I rang? [Peter Kingston] She'd love it. [Sandra McGrath] Would she? [Peter Kingston] She'd love it. I'll tell her you're going to ring. That would be nice. Where does she live? [Peter Kingston] She lives at Watsons Bay.

Peter Kingston Mum could fill you in on all about about the film world. [Sandra McGrath] What's her address there? Uh, 37 Cove Street, Watsons Bay.

Sandra McGrath 37 Cove Street, yeah. [Peter Kingston] Watsons Bay. [Sandra McGrath] Watsons Bay.

Peter Kingston So, um... I'll just see if I can find this photo of Clem. Oh, there's my dad! See, that's the 20th Century Fox, sort of...

Sandra McGrath Looks just exactly like you'd imagine the '20s to look like.

Peter Kingston Yes, doesn't it? Isn't it? That's at Bondi.

Sandra McGrath Ironbark.

Peter Kingston Ironbark. There they are. There's Clem. Would you like a copy of that?

Sandra McGrath Yes, I'd love it. Which one is he? [Peter Kingston] There.

Peter Kingston Isn't he dapper? [Sandra McGrath] Oh, yes. At Luna Park, and there's my dad there.

Sandra McGrath Describe that picture of Clem.

Peter Kingston Well, um, as you can see, Clem is, uh, wearing a much more stylish coat than the other chaps. And he must have been a, um... He's even wearing spats. He's even got tan shoes with white spats. Can you see that, Sandra? But you can see his jacket tapers in at the waist, and he's obviously a very, very snappy dresser. And, um, he looks a nice guy, actually. [Sandra McGrath] Is there a Is there a date on that, by the way? No, no, unfortunately there's not. I'd say it would be round about 194- 1948, would it be something like that?

Sandra McGrath Can't you tell by Luna Park? You know it by... [Peter Kingston] Uh, well, that's what I'm trying to tell by. It opened in 1935, and I'd say

Peter Kingston I'd say 1940. Oh, well, see, I was born in 1943. Um... 1940- 1942, something like that.

Sandra McGrath You say 1942?

Peter Kingston Let's say 1942.

Sandra McGrath You think that's during the war? That'd be during the war.

Peter Kingston That'd be during the war, yeah, yeah. Luna Park was open during the war.

Sandra McGrath Was it?

Peter Kingston Yeah.

Sandra McGrath And who are the other two men in the photo?

Peter Kingston Don't know. Don't know the other two men. I can ask Mum.

Sandra McGrath Will you? [Peter Kingston] Yeah. [Sandra McGrath] That would be marvellous. If you could, uh, take that to her and ask her about that.

Peter Kingston Okay. All right.

Sandra McGrath Will you do that?

Peter Kingston Yeah. I mean, this would be a nice one because it's, uh, that was our our relationship, you know, with our dads.

Sandra McGrath Yeah, how could we get... Could Would you... And I'll leave all this in your hands. [Peter Kingston] Yeah, I'll get you a copy of that. Yeah, yeah, I'll I'll make a note of that.

Peter Kingston You'd like a copy of that?

Sandra McGrath Yes, maybe you should make a note of the things we talk of here so that, 'cause I'd like to get this together before I go, which is... [Peter Kingston] Yeah. Sure.

Peter Kingston You're going to Fiji, are you?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. I'm going to go find the village, go see the village where he stayed and see and talk to the chief later. Um...

Intercom Peter, it's uh Sandra, and I'm here to see you. It's quarter to eight and I'm going to be late. Well, not very late, but I just wanted to tell you...

Peter Kingston I've got painting in the house downstairs. Okay, for Sandra.

Sandra McGrath So for Sandra, we are putting in...

Peter Kingston The Luna Park photo

Sandra McGrath of Clem Whiteley and Percy Kingston at Luna Park around 1942.

Peter Kingston Mum will tell you some interesting things, actually, I'd love it. [Peter Kingston] you know, because she's, um, lovely person, and she's, uh, she can always see the, uh, amusing side of things. And, um, she feels Beryl She feels Beryl's too, um, racy for her. Like she said, "Beryl hasn't got time for me, I'm too old," but she's probably about the same old—age as Beryl. It's just she's she's not terribly well, and Beryl's lucky, she's up and running, you know.

Sandra McGrath Well, we're going to put the etching in, this is Brett...

Peter Kingston Yeah, the etching.

Sandra McGrath Things for the book because I've got to get these in the hands of the publisher.

Peter Kingston So I'll say, "Who who are the other men

Sandra McGrath Uh-huh.

Peter Kingston in the photograph?" Photo. [Peter Kingston] Wendy knew you were coming today.

Sandra McGrath How did she know?

Peter Kingston I told her last night.

Sandra McGrath Oh. Oh, so she's trying to interrupt it?

Peter Kingston Well, no, she said to come over for lunch. I said, "Well, I'm busy."

Sandra McGrath Um, now what other things? The the the etching of you that Brett did of you. I'm just going to keep things in...

Peter Kingston The etching Brett did of me. I'll find that now, actually. I've got that. I've got that here. Uh, Luna Park was very exciting part of my childhood, and, uh, we used to go there Saturday afternoon, um, as many times as possible in our lives, and, uh, it had wonderful quality rides, and, uh, fantasy. Particularly Coney Island with the slippery slides and the joy wheel and, uh, I've actually got a photo of Brett and Bob Hughes at Luna Park.

Sandra McGrath Oh, fabulous.

Peter Kingston And, um, the sad thing about all the photos to do with Brett is that most of them have been lost. And, uh, but I This is a photocopy, so it'd be great if I could... So you've got to move quickly on this book, haven't you?

Sandra McGrath Yes, I do, because I'm also going...

Peter Kingston We're looking at a [Peter Kingston] We're looking at a photostat of a photograph that Brett's drawn on, of Brett Whiteley and Robert Hughes at the Luna Park photo studio, around about 1950,

Sandra McGrath with a kangaroo,

Peter Kingston with a kangaroo. And I don't know what Brett's got in his hand. Looks like a switchblade, or it's a pencil or something.

Sandra McGrath Brett has his arms around

Peter Kingston Robert Hughes.

Sandra McGrath Robert Hughes, and there's a big eye in the

Peter Kingston A big eye in the corner that Brett's stuck on it, and a drawing. Now that's a wonderful thing.

Sandra McGrath That's a fabulous picture. We'll get it, well even if we have to use that.

Peter Kingston I'm afraid the original's missing.

Sandra McGrath All right, we'll doctor that one up.

Peter Kingston So doctor that one up, because I think that's a real score, that one.

Sandra McGrath That's a score, isn't it?

Peter Kingston I thought Bob Hughes was a bit mean about Brett.

Sandra McGrath He hates drugs so much.

Peter Kingston But, you know, he's obviously a dry drunk, you see, because he's had his troubles with alcohol and so on, hasn't he?

Sandra McGrath Oh, I don't think alcohol, I think he had trouble with his wife and drugs.

Peter Kingston I see, so he's absolutely anathema to it.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston Yeah. He just seemed a bit, uh...

Sandra McGrath Tough.

Peter Kingston Yeah, a bit... I couldn't see the friendship there, you know. I thought there was a friendship there, but... Anyway, that's a that's a beauty.

Sandra McGrath Oh, yeah, that's fabulous.

Peter Kingston Do you want... How are we going to do this?

Sandra McGrath In the end, it, you know, now we can look at his work in its entirety, we can see that the egg... He hates drugs so much.

Peter Kingston He's obviously a dry drunk, you see, because he's had his troubles with alcohol and so on.

Sandra McGrath I don't think he had trouble with his wife at all.

Peter Kingston I see, so he's absolutely anathema to it. He just seemed a bit... I couldn't see the friendship there. I thought there was a friendship there. Anyway, that's a beauty for you. How are we going to do this?

Sandra McGrath In the end, now we can look at his work in its entirety.

Peter Kingston Well, he said I read a thing he wrote yesterday, uh it said that birds' nests are almost as beautiful as as the birds and their eggs. So he found them just the most beautiful things in the world, didn't he, really? Birds and nests.

Sandra McGrath Where did you find Brett's nest?

Peter Kingston Downstairs. He did some bamboo, he just said, "This is how you this is how you draw bamboo," and he picked up a brush and quickly did some bamboo. And then he said this thing about birds' nests and I wrote that on the bottom of it. The girl downstairs, I gave it to her and it's framed, you know, so I just remember he said that. The trouble with Brett is, is so everything he said was worth writing down. One never did, you know. But I did then. Okay, I'll put that mark there, okay? Thanks. That's Brett. But if you'd have a quick look through this, you might find, as you say, Luna Park was such a fantastic, um...

Sandra McGrath scene. Well, I just thought it was so weird that there was there was this there was Mr Whiteley

Peter Kingston and living here now too. And living here. But look at that wonderful building, look at you know, with that onion dome on it. It's just too much, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath And the fact that his view, really, was dominated by Luna Park. My word, it was.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm trying to put things into scrapbooks as they occur, that way you don't slip up, you know. There's Arkie.

Sandra McGrath Oh, isn't that a That's a lovely one of Arkie. Just grab that photograph. Who did this photograph?

Peter Kingston Johnny Lewis.

Sandra McGrath And um I'll get that for the book.

Peter Kingston Okay, yeah, that'd be a beauty for Arkie, because that's a good period of Arkie's life, you know.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston And Arkie used to help me with magic. We used to do magic together, you see.

Sandra McGrath Tell me about magic.

Peter Kingston Well, it was sort of um...

Sandra McGrath Look, in this photograph, let's describe the photograph.

Peter Kingston Well, the photograph is uh Louage the Magician, and um that's me, and Arkie was Dolly, who was uh Louage's assistant, and Molly the dog, she was also part of the act, she was a chocolate poodle. And uh I think it was it was performances that used to happen mainly at parties and things like that, very closed uh performances. And um Dolly was the magician's assistant.

Sandra McGrath And when were you doing this?

Peter Kingston This must have been when Arkie was um eight, would she be eight there?

Sandra McGrath It's about that.

Peter Kingston Yeah.

Sandra McGrath I just want a piece of paper to put in here.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

Sandra McGrath And tell me about you doing magic shows.

Peter Kingston Ah, it was a frustrated performer in me, I suppose.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston And um you were able to do it, you know, uh um showing off, I suppose, just just for the sake of it. But it was good, because if things went wrong, there was enough disguises, you know, enough uh cloaks and things to draw around.

Sandra McGrath Tell me that How do you spell the name of that?

Peter Kingston L-E-U-E-G-E.

Sandra McGrath M-B-U-

Peter Kingston E-G-E.

Sandra McGrath Why did you name the magician Louage?

Peter Kingston Don't know.

Sandra McGrath You can't think of a reason?

Peter Kingston No, no, no, it just came out of the blue.

Sandra McGrath And that's you in part of the robe?

Peter Kingston Yeah, that's and an old wardrobe was the dream chest, it's an old wardrobe in there. It was mainly a thing of vanishing Dolly into there and changing it to some smaller person.

Sandra McGrath Now how did you do that?

Peter Kingston Oh, well, there was a false back and there were she just went down down inside, you know, to a tiny baby.

Sandra McGrath No, I don't believe it.

Peter Kingston No, no, sometimes we had to get a lend of babies. Had to get a lend of babies.

Sandra McGrath You mean you would actually produce a baby out of the... A real baby? Not a doll?

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah. A real baby. Yeah, once anyway.

Sandra McGrath Once. Whose baby was it?

Peter Kingston Oh, I think it was I think it was uh must have been Christine Oliver's baby.

Sandra McGrath Tell me the period that you lived so close.

Peter Kingston There's Louage, there's a drawing of Louage doing the dishes. He's that sort of magician, he had to do the dishes, you see, rather than using magic.

Sandra McGrath And when you said you lived next to Brett for four years, no, more than that.

Peter Kingston Well, I've been living here for 18 years now.

Sandra McGrath So, you've lived lived next door to him for 18 years, basically.

Peter Kingston Yeah, well, Brett hasn't lived here for the last four years.

Sandra McGrath No, I know, but up till...

Peter Kingston Yeah, up up till he left, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And tell me what other... uh tell me about sort of daily life of Brett in Lavender Bay, if there was one.

Peter Kingston Oh, the daily life of Brett, it was in summer if it was summer, we'd be uh jumping off the end of the wharf into the the water. This is in the the days, actually, when I came in on the Whiteleys, um they they only lived upstairs in that house, in that uh 1 Walker Street, and there was a huge aviary. The front um uh uh room was absolutely given over to these birds, and uh it was all wire mesh across the the doorways, and the birds were able to come and go as they liked, and um their bedroom looked through the the the the the wire mesh to the outside world. So that was the very early days, and um oh, it was a very What days? What a date, give me a date. Mm, I'd say this would be uh nine- four, uh '68.

Sandra McGrath And you were here in 1967?

Peter Kingston Uh yes, yes. You were here a year earlier. Now see, Brett gave me that drawing there, see that one there? The waves, and that's 1970. He used to call me, it says, "For Dream-a-Day". He'd call me Dream-a-Day. Call me Dream-a-Day. I'm not a bit embarrassed, don't put that down, that's what's written on that thing: "For Dream-a-Day". And um so that that that was when I was after I'd made the the film about Brett, and that was in 1970. So the Lavender Day Lavender Bay days must have started about 1968, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Describe the Lavender Bay days.

Peter Kingston Well, it was like being um ah so I wasn't living here just then, I was visiting a lot, and um used to stay a lot, stay stay over, so the the days used to go into to a week. And um there was no sort of uh uh it's a continuum of being with Brett, really. And um if it was summer, we'd be diving off the end of the jetty into Lavender Bay, and no worry about pollution or sharks or anything.

Sandra McGrath And Because there wasn't any?

Peter Kingston Well, I think there was.

Sandra McGrath Because they were and you didn't worry.

Peter Kingston Didn't worry, no. And um Brett was always working. He was um always sitting in these white cut-off jeans on the living room floor, paintings or drawing or um he never stopped. I'll show you a wonderful assemblage I've got on the back verandah that I rescued out of the garden a few months ago, made of a thong and a bit of driftwood, and uh well, that was the sort of thing. In a in a way, he he was um a bit um inhibiting, because uh if one was interested in making things, uh Brett would always swamp the uh the creativity that was around. You know, he was so creative that that one sort of either retreated into a glass of wine or uh a cigarette or or or or um ah I mean, it was fantastic knowing Brett, but it was also uh difficult knowing Brett, because one one's one's own life went on hold, really, to to to accommodate Brett. Whether you'd be going to the pub and having a a whiskey with him quite early, and that.

Sandra McGrath So after you'd have a bit of uh sort of make a composite of a day, you'd go for a swim, this is a summer day, go for a swim.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah. Uh go for a swim, um go to the pub and have a whiskey and a beer, that was sort of, you know, together. That was a very alcoholic sort of thing.

Sandra McGrath Go to the pub up here, really, is that... Up on Blues Point Road?

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath What is that pub called up there?

Peter Kingston Well, it was usually the early openers down at the quay, you know what I mean? Sort of... But um ah I know Sundays were wonderful, we used to always go to the Tai- this is this is a bit of history, always go to the Taiping down at um T-I T-I Taiping T-A-I? T-A-I-P-I-N-G, the Taiping down at Chinatown, and uh Sunday Sunday afternoon lunches were those fantastic things. They'd start about 2:00, and end about 5:00, and um there used to be dinner for about 20, at least 20, ev- every Sunday, and Brett would generously shout, always. And uh it was uh very very Who would be at some of those Sunday lunches? Ah, they'd be Peter Wright and Mandy Wright, and um they'd be uh Pinky,

Sandra McGrath Pinky?

Peter Kingston Pinky Wilson. Yes, he came up to Bundanon, remember that? Gavin. Gavin Wilson.

Sandra McGrath Gavin Wilson.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah. Um actually, do you know, I don't know whether Gavin was in those. I'm just trying to think of um

Sandra McGrath Think of a table at the Taiping.

Peter Kingston Yeah. Ah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Everyone drinking wine and talking?

Peter Kingston Oh, yes, everyone drinking wine. Um Terry Stern. Jeez, I'm terrible, my mind just goes blank about who would have been at those lunches. You know, they were quite... Probably someone will rival that person, you know what I mean? Did you go to those Sunday lunches?

Sandra McGrath The Sunday lunches at the... And this would have all been in the six- '60s, '70s?

Peter Kingston Yes, early '70s. Early '70s. And then, of course, there'd be all the excitement of the night at the gallery. You know, helping Brett get his show organised, and um

Sandra McGrath I tried to get hold of Tim this morning, and couldn't.

Peter Kingston I saw a letter he wrote to Fran, saying

Sandra McGrath It's very good that this show is on.

Peter Kingston It is, you know. Oh, I know no, I know, well a lot of paintings were burnt in the fire, that's uh...

Sandra McGrath Was it his fire?

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath What do you mean, the let- the letter Fran said he couldn't help her?

Peter Kingston He said that he couldn't help Fran too much, you know, that...

Sandra McGrath What is Fran wanting to do?

Peter Kingston Um she's doing helping curate the show, the Art Gallery. So um...

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's good, I didn't know that.

Peter Kingston You should go up and see Fran.

Sandra McGrath I'm going to, I'm going to ring her this afternoon. In fact, I might go up and stay at the um with her.

Peter Kingston Oh, we stayed at the Railway Hotel across the road, which was marvellous, $15.

Sandra McGrath Well, I'm going to ask if I can come up and stay.

Peter Kingston Well, Mandy flew, which was good.

Sandra McGrath I'm going to fly.

Peter Kingston Yeah.

Sandra McGrath She doesn't know this, though, I'll ask her if I can come up.

Peter Kingston Yeah, I think that would be nice, you know.

Sandra McGrath Because I want to see her.

Peter Kingston Oh no, she's got a lot to say. So I'll get that photo of Brett and Brett and Fran from those kids.

Sandra McGrath Let's move I want to go Where were you? You were talking about Sundays, Sunday lunches, yeah. Um...

Peter Kingston And Bundanon. We did Bundanon, didn't we? Yeah. What date was that, Bundanon? Do you like coffee? I'll just put a coffee on here. Yeah, there's a nice biscuit.

Sandra McGrath We're talking about uh this etching that uh...

Peter Kingston Yes, Brett Brett came in and saw me uh colouring an etching, and he grabbed it from me and uh he coloured it the way he'd like to have it. And uh once again, the astonishing free thing to see in Brett was the concentration in him, the way he'd sit at something, and for hours or uh just for as long as it'd take, whether it was a drawing or a painting, it was just he'd sit at it. Did you ever see him work? He'd just uh I mean, I work and then I wander off a bit. It's terrible, it's um...

Sandra McGrath Go and make coffee or something. He never moved, yeah.

Peter Kingston Yeah, yeah, he never moved, he never moved. And of course, I suppose that went into everything in his life, everything was when he was on whichever bit of his life he was onto, he was onto it, wasn't he? There was no wandering away in the middle, so he carried everything through.

Sandra McGrath This etching has got the Sydney Harbour coloured bright blood red.

Peter Kingston Blood red, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Blood red. And it's uh an etching called Gauguin Goes to the Zoo, Gauguin Gauguin Goes to the Zoo, Gauguin Goes to the Zoo, and it's Taronga Park Zoo and it's full of detail of birds and ostriches and camels and monkeys dressed up and riding bikes uh with the Harbour Bridge in the background, surfers going around, uh and of course, the the mountain rivers, the dosser, it's a composite picture, absolutely charming. I guess Carcoar and Bathurst were all places you visited as well?

Peter Kingston Yes, yes they were. And I went to that show on the mid-west that Fran put on at the Orange Regional Gallery. And that was fascinating, just to see the way he looks at art. Just the way to see Brett looks at things. You look at the same thing that he looks at. That's something the film could have done, actually. Could have shown us, you know, the scene, and then what Brett did. Because that's always fascinating with Van Gogh, isn't it, when you look at, you know, a bridge and then what he does to it, you know. Well, at least that other film was made by Featherstone. I thought that was pretty good. I've got that, too. Do you want that? I've got it, actually, pretty good. Somebody said to Brett, "How are you, Brett?" And he said, "Better than that." He was always on the hunt against mediocrity. Always, for the, you know, in everything. He made everyone try harder. When you were with Brett, you always tried a bit harder. When you were with Brett you always tried a bit harder. But he could embarrass you because one felt one couldn't rise to the, you know. See, his voice, wonderful, that lovely tone in his voice, you know, that lovely warm sort of... He never... Actually, I'd like you to talk to Jan Court. She knows Brett. She's done a beautiful portrait of Brett. She lives in the flats over there.

Sandra McGrath Oh really? I'd love to.

Peter Kingston She's not home today, but I'll give you her number. And if you had a chat on the phone, thought you might like to talk more. But she's very fond of him, and she's very good with words, you know. So...

Sandra McGrath Oh, you don't have to...

Peter Kingston No, I will. No, well, she's sort of... Ah, look at Brett, jeez.

Sandra McGrath Tell me about the time that, in recent times, when you went painting with him and things. Tell me places, actual episodes that you did, say, the last, oh, year or so.

Peter Kingston Oh, right, well...

Sandra McGrath You got a diary?

Peter Kingston Uh, no, I've got this book here.

Sandra McGrath It's so hard to find... What dates did you do this?

Peter Kingston Well, there's quite many occasions in the last year, but there was one at Millthorpe. That... Yes, hang on. I'll just put all these on the floor. There's a little abstract he'd done at Millthorpe. That's about a year ago.

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's another picture. Isn't it beautiful?

Peter Kingston That's two, two sheets of cardboard.

Sandra McGrath Is this Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston Mm-hmm.

Sandra McGrath Isn't that beautiful?

Peter Kingston And there's a willow tree, you see, down the road.

Sandra McGrath He's keen on willow trees.

Peter Kingston Oh, that's... Oh, that's an etching I did of Brett with his glasses.

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's...

Peter Kingston Oh, that's a drawing I did of Brett. See the two faces?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. That's good.

Peter Kingston You like that?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston I've got the original of it.

Sandra McGrath Was he clean when you were up at Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston Pardon?

Sandra McGrath Was he on drugs when you were up...

Peter Kingston Millthorpe?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, at Millthorpe.

Peter Kingston No, he's trying to get off heroin, but, of course, he always drank whisky to get off it. It's so difficult, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Peter Kingston It's the only time in my life that Brett has told me his troubles. He's never, ever told me his troubles. You know how one always tells one's troubles?

Sandra McGrath Yes.

Peter Kingston He always tried hard, Brett, to try and make things positive and interesting, and it's hard work, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath It is indeed.

Peter Kingston He started drinking Glenfiddich whisky the, he was in bed a lot of the time because he was, you know, so uncomfortable. Then the evening he started drinking Glenfiddich whisky and he said, "I'm frightened. I'm frightened." He was angry with me, you know, in that I couldn't help him. Because one's so used to him being a tower of strength, you know.

Sandra McGrath And you're also used to him being in control.

Peter Kingston That's right. But I'll never forget him saying, "I'm frightened, I'm frightened." And... Why couldn't I help him? You know, it's terrible, isn't it? It's, um... That's asking for help, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath What do you think he was frightened of?

Peter Kingston Frightened of dying. Absolutely.

Sandra McGrath And did he think it was going to be then?

Peter Kingston Oh, God, yes. He knew it was soon.

Sandra McGrath Now when were you talking about this though?

Peter Kingston This would have been eight months ago.

Sandra McGrath Oh, last May.

Peter Kingston Last May, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And that was when you were at Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston Millthorpe. I just think he was worn out by the cycle of coming down and going up, and coming down and going up, and on and on. I really do think Brett's problems began and ended with heroin, I do. But that's naive, isn't it? Where does one's problems begin and end?

Sandra McGrath What else did he say that last, that Millthorpe trip?

Peter Kingston Um... He told me I'd left my run too late. I was doing an oil painting, and he came up and grabbed it and swirled it around and did magic with it. Of course, when he'd gone, I changed it all again. I should have left it, what he'd done. Instead of the scene that I was trying to do, he created it out of his head. He got the gist of the river and then put a huge rock in the middle of the river, and had all the water flowing around it. He did it with his fingers and brushes. It was marvellous to behold. He said, "You've left your run too late." He said, "I was painting when I was 14." He said, "You've got to use oils." You know, if you're going to use oils, you don't use them all turpsy like that, you know, like watercolours. You use oils, you use oils, you know. And he was always good whatever medium he worked in, he knew it exactly. Whether it was a silk screen print, he knew exactly the process. He knew which images would be good as silk screens, what'd be good as etchings, what'd be good as lithographs. And all his work shows that. You know, that he understood...

Sandra McGrath The medium.

Peter Kingston The medium. Always, yeah. Always understood it.

Sandra McGrath Was it just the two of you up at Millthorpe?

Peter Kingston Just the two of us, yeah, yeah. And he used to cook these eye fillets at night, just like sushi, you know, just like one inch thick.

Sandra McGrath Mm-hmm.

Peter Kingston And he'd do the vegetables. He was a good cook. He used to do carrots, three, three vegetables in a saucepan, just boiled in a saucepan, with an eye fillet just seared on each side, you know.

Sandra McGrath That's a bit of sushi.

Peter Kingston Yeah.

Sandra McGrath What, what time of year was it?

Peter Kingston It was May.

Sandra McGrath Because it looks like it was spring, but it wasn't?

Peter Kingston Uh, it was May, so it was cold.

Sandra McGrath Cold fall.

Peter Kingston Yeah, fall. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Cold with fires?

Peter Kingston Yeah, we had fires. Um...