Justin O'Brien

Sandra McGrath 1 2 3 4 May 17 17 1976 with Justin O'Brien. Testing. Four sound. Eight. Now, I want to I want to discuss very simply--

Justin O'Brien Could you turn that off?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Justin O'Brien Because I can't hear anything. I've got to listen to the music or listen to the talk.

Sandra McGrath Yeah, we'll turn it off.

Justin O'Brien Right.

Sandra McGrath I wanted to start with basics, like where you were born. So where were you born?

Justin O'Brien I was born in Hurstville.

Sandra McGrath Yeah, it's Hurstville.

Justin O'Brien In my on my picture in the Vatican, they've got on me that I was born in Hunters Hill.

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's a Hunters Hill's another town.

Justin O'Brien Well, they didn't even put the word Australia there. It doesn't matter. You know, I come from Hunters Hill, but there's no other link at all. Hunters Hill's quite an idea. [laughter] What's the painting like in the Vatican? It's Raising of Lazarus. It's not bad, and they framed it beautifully. They framed the walls. They reframed everything. You've never seen it, have you? No. Well, they took all the Borgia Apartments. And, by god, they look good. Downstairs. Well, all the Borgia Apartments. In on one side there, they go through from I have I'm so confused. I've only been there. Well, a lot of Pinturicchios in some of them. They're beautiful. And oh, they're beautiful. And they cut some of the rooms up and made them smaller. They did it beautifully. Destroyed nothing. It looks magnificent. And you're Irish. Where's the Irish? Well, my Irish my mother is Irish. She came from Kilkenny. She's direct at the age of three. And my mother's father my my father's mother came out and said the same. My grandmother, mother, his father, he came out. And he went down to live in Melbourne because his first wife died. And um I can't even think what his name is now, what. And then he had another family. But my grandmother

Sandra McGrath would never speak to him because he left her. It's a very a very Irish background. Did you go to a Catholic church?

Justin O'Brien I went to Waverley. Waverley. I left school when I was 14. Fully educated. [laughter] Yeah, I don't think any artist I know went to school beyond 14. Oh, I can't think. I couldn't bear school. I think my father was disappointed. He wanted to go to academic institutions. I had I I felt it in my bones. I didn't want any he was an Ashton or Julian. He knew I was senior, you know.

Sandra McGrath But how did you know you were going to be an artist?

Justin O'Brien I knew it when I was five. Did you know it too? Did you want to be one or not? Yes, it's all I knew. There's no question of anything in the world.

Sandra McGrath Do you remember Do you remember how you knew at five?

Justin O'Brien Well, five or six, let's say. Five, six, when I used to go to stay with my aunt. You know where Rex Albert's other house is, his father's old house in Boomerang? My aunt had a house, my uncle had a house just there. And then the Alberts had the house next door. There were two houses together. And the Edmonds one on the corner, on the beach in Elizabeth Bay or double bay. And I used to sit like you are here now, and I used to draw the the boats and with crayons that my aunt used to buy for me. My aunt. And I knew then there was only one thing. I didn't know what it was. I just

Sandra McGrath Were there Were there any artists in your family?

Justin O'Brien No. My father had done a drawing and he's he had had executed

Sandra McGrath Tell us.

Justin O'Brien talents. He said he was a rather dull, rather nice little man, you know, but he had a beautiful voice, he could sing. And he loved drawing, and we had a drawing in our breakfast room that he'd done an African of some African scene with hunters and all their dead animals. It was a wonderful picture. I don't know where it is, probably one of my brothers has got it. How many brothers did you have?

Sandra McGrath Two brothers.

Justin O'Brien You're one of five?

Sandra McGrath Do you know Mario Regan?

Justin O'Brien No. That's why I asked you. Uh one of five. One of six, but one died. The rest did.

Sandra McGrath And did the Irish take, I mean, the Irish Catholic Waverley education take in terms of a religious

Justin O'Brien slant? Well, I was not a Catholic since I was 35. I gave it up.

Sandra McGrath And became something else, or just

Justin O'Brien No, nothing.

Sandra McGrath left a void?

Justin O'Brien I just, no, there was nothing there. Um, I just don't know. I'm what you call an agnostic.

Sandra McGrath You're placed with the occult?

Justin O'Brien With the what?

Sandra McGrath The occult, I said.

Justin O'Brien Oh, never did that. [laughter] Oh, my God, no. No, never did, but nothing replaced it. It's just an empty hole here still.

Sandra McGrath What made you decide to give it up at 35?

Justin O'Brien I couldn't believe it anymore. It just became silly. And, you know, I live near the Vatican.

Sandra McGrath I hear you live in the shadow of the Vatican.

Justin O'Brien Well, I live in the shadow of the Pope.

Sandra McGrath Apparently, you hear the Pope speak every day.

Justin O'Brien Yeah, I hear the Pope call every Sunday. God bless you. God bless you. From the balcony, it's terrible over there. And um I go up to see, well, I go to St Peter's I suppose three times a week.

Sandra McGrath Just to look around?

Justin O'Brien Oh, yes. I because I love St Peter's, I think it's marvellous. It's got, you know, if you look if you look at things singularly, it's silly. But if you look at it as a whole great theatre, it's the greatest theatre in the world, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath It's got a very spatial world.

Justin O'Brien Well, enormous, it's nice, of course. I mean, you've just got to look get the proportion of someone standing against one of those fonts, the Bernini fonts, and you suddenly realise what the extraordinary Anyway, I go up and I I'm attached to Catholicism, I'm attached still to Christianity. But I'm attached to it as rather like an old friend, you know, it's a sort of I can't think of anything else that'll take its place, of course, because I don't know, I'm not a prophet in any sense. But um

Sandra McGrath Did something happen at 35 to suddenly

Justin O'Brien make it, what was it, happen? Uh No, I don't I think I went abroad at that time, I remember. When I When I went to Spain, I went to Italy, I went all over the place. And I hadn't really decided then, properly. And when I came back from the trip, that's when I decided. Because I couldn't that it was not real any longer.

Sandra McGrath When you from 14, when you went to study teacher, uh learning, what was the you're a friend of the old man?

Justin O'Brien Yeah, old Ian Smith, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And what happened between say 14 and 20?

Justin O'Brien Between 14 and 20, well, I I studied with him uh for four years. And he made me he got me teaching in schools at the age of about the age of 14, teaching at the age of 17, which is extraordinary and terrible, really. I knew nothing about it. I mean, I knew nothing about teaching at all. And I was a very raw boy, really, and very unsophisticated. And, you know, I trained on my own, you see. I never went in amongst young students at all. He was at the Technical College, and there was a woman also called Jerzy Kit-chan. She was a convert to the Catholic, she was a saint. You know that picture? And her uncle had had been killed in Spain. But she was a very, very sweet woman, and very gentle, and she went off on that, and it was awful, and had to go to nun's place, you know, she had to go to nun. A nun's place, she had to look after her, and then she, I had to live to see her before she died, she died. But I went, I stayed with him. Do you do you know um Oh, dear, oh dear, yeah, Isabel Lee?

Sandra McGrath Mhm. Do you know where she lives? Mhm.

Justin O'Brien Well, just at the side of Isabel Lee's house, there's a Queen a lane. No, no, no, there's a little laneway that runs down. I know it's called Queen's Street, whatever, Cumberland's cross corner. And right at the top of it, and it's right next to Lee's backyard, near the swimming pool, is an old looks like a little old studio or warehouse or stable, just stables. That's what it was originally, and that's where I studied, in the lane. And I studied upstairs, on my own, and he teacher would come up. Oly would come up, say, three times a week, and he'd set me

Sandra McGrath Must have been pretty lonely. No, I didn't mind it, I loved it.

Justin O'Brien And I'd go down to, see, my aunt lived down on that street, and I would go down for lunch every day, walk down.

Sandra McGrath Did your parents think this was fine?

Justin O'Brien Absolutely loved it, yeah.

Sandra McGrath No prejudice against the artist at all?

Justin O'Brien No, I'll tell you something, my one sister loved wanted to be an actress, Molly. And they sent her to England, to study. She was a very good teacher, she was very, very clever, she had young. Another sister wanted to play and to sing, so the Booth Street Public School of Art, and she went she studied piano and she studied singing. The other brother, when he left university, and he also wanted to be a priest, Christ, he came out, but he was a very good musician, and he studied music. Uh the other one the other boy was not artistically inclined in any way at all. But instead of being this is the thing I loved about you see, they in one way or thought they'd be rather unimaginative, they weren't. They were opposites of unimaginative. They were excited by it all, and they would do anything to help. And they loved what you did, and when you brought the pictures home, and sit and look at them, and oh, not never any pissing down. It was interesting, right? I've often thought about that, because and never once put a thing in the way of And any success you had later on, to them was absolutely wonderful. You know, they sort of glowed, but not because of themselves. They glowed because of you. It was unselfish, you know. I know they were very good parents, very. So I I never had any I never had any refuge in

Sandra McGrath In 19 and uh where were you when 20? Did you go on to Wait a minute, I taught at schools, and I uh in convent

Justin O'Brien mostly. And then I uh one I finished up teaching at 11 schools a week. I used to go from one to another, go by train, by bus, well, I did a terrible time because I was young and I didn't notice. I don't I liked teaching. Then I couldn't do very much painting. I don't know whether you know an old building called Bomera. It's right at the bottom of you probably don't know, but it's the bottom of Wylde Street. You know, where you go down Macleay Street and you go into Wylde Street at the bottom, because the old dock wasn't there then. You don't remember that, do you? No. No, well, you weren't here. But there there was no dock, and it was all water. And so this old house, which is still there, and it's an Admiralty House, Oh, yeah. something through the government, the navy. And it had an old swimming pool, it was a charming place, I can't tell you. It's like something out of this world, you know, for a young man. And I got a big, huge studio in it. And we I we paid, I was teaching uh the puppets, teach. But no, it was not organised, it's shambles. [laughter] And I had about six or seven students who were doing their teaching diplomas, and I was teaching. And I had the critique. And an idea of it.

Sandra McGrath Extraordinary, unbelievable, you know.

Justin O'Brien And then they come to me for life drawing. It's too nice. [laughter] All the sort of And then, oh, they've all taken, they've all took themselves up to the arts, you see. But I would you can just imagine the standard of what we did then. Anyway, I did that, and I stayed there till the war declared. And I joined the army right at the beginning of the war, and I I'm had a chum, I had a poet friend of mine called Barry Geraghty. He was a nice fellow. He's married and living up at Barrenjoey, up at Palm Beach. I think he's still there. And uh we both were walking down Martin Place, and he said, and I said, "I think we should join up."

Sandra McGrath And we Were you 21 then?

Justin O'Brien And we both went in and signed, you know. And then [laughter] a terrible feeling afterwards when you went out to the showground, and you're in the army. [laughter] There was no way out. You died, you said.

Sandra McGrath Uh, then I became, I went into the Medical Corps,

Justin O'Brien and I became a nurse, so I got my extra bob a day, I was studying a bit.

Sandra McGrath How did you know how to be a nurse?

Justin O'Brien Well, I didn't know how to be a nurse till I when they they said, "Do you want to be a pioneer, or do you want to be in the Medical Corps?" And when I said I was a painter, "Oh, all painters can do anything." So, they picked medical. And I liked that very much.

Sandra McGrath It's a they're quite right. They have

Justin O'Brien I don't know why should painters be good at medicine.

Sandra McGrath Question: did you or someone have to go and draw war wounds or something? That's the question.

Justin O'Brien Oh, no, I didn't I didn't want to do a drawing. I wanted to nurse. You know,

Sandra McGrath Dressing the wounded.

Justin O'Brien Oh, yes. I did I You see, I was trained up at Greta, up near Newcastle, and we had a proper training school. A hospital, you know, they trained there. And then we went, eventually, we we travelled on the Queen Mary, you see. And the Queen Mary took us across to India.

Sandra McGrath The Queen Mary was the first trip she'd ever made to take uh to Australia. So, I think it was the first trip the Queen Mary ever made to Australia.

Justin O'Brien Well, that was that was I probably was on that one.

Sandra McGrath Well, you must have been. They had the four big ships.

Justin O'Brien There was the Queen Elizabeth The Queen Elizabeth came out, and then the old Mauretania, the old one, the four-funnel. It was a very, very amusing convoy, lovely to look at.

Sandra McGrath That's four, were all together.

Justin O'Brien Three. Queen Mary, Queen Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth, and the old Mauretania. And uh uh we we had a uh an Australian cruiser, which was sunk later on, I wonder what it was called. It was a well-known one. The Perth.

Sandra McGrath And that took you to India?

Justin O'Brien That took her That took me to India. In India we changed over to another huge convoy. there was a huge program, and then we went to the Middle East, and I went to Palestine, and I was in Palestine nursing, but the nursing was all, well, it was all ordinary camp nursing, you know, people with minor illnesses, you know, minor injuries and all that sort of thing. And we had very little to do with any surgery. And then suddenly we were shot right down to Greece right at the very end of the Greek campaign, right? And next thing, we all were bound in star craft, but we arrived in the Piraeus harbour. We were shipped to the 26th General Hospital.

Sandra McGrath You really hadn't seen anything very dramatic until that?

Justin O'Brien No, all I'd seen was sort of things I loved looking at, you know, and thought it was wonderful. But one never believed that it could touch you. You never did very much either, let's say. Then we got off the the boats, and we were taken out outside Athens, to a place called, er, er, Kifissia, and it was a sort of, er, er, it was a sort of smart suburb. about a quarter of an hour out. The place consisted of lots of homes, hotel hotels, nice hotels. They weren't modern ones, they were nice, old-fashioned ones. And they turned those into type of a hospital, you know, big tented hospitals. And we started taking in, for a couple of days, and then we had this advance, and the English evacuated. In other words, they began to move out of the, they had evacuated out into this sort of into this sort of base scene, you know. And and we were, we were strictly to be the 26th General Hospital. And then the whole of the wounded started pouring in. And there was evacuated, you see. They had evacuated the medical and nursing, but we were left.

Sandra McGrath Where did they leave you?

Justin O'Brien Well, we left, after they evacuated, we just were on our own, we had a huge— I was a nurse, and I had in a ward 60 60 patients, all surgical patients, with no legs, with no legs and no arms, and tell them I used to get beat up every day, I had no legs, no arms, you know, amputation, you know, what I mean.

Sandra McGrath You weren't squeamish about it?

Justin O'Brien No, I'd learnt to know nursing quickly. You know, I had all the it's funny, all that background, not hospital, not four or five months background, but it was continually in wards, you were watching and you were learning. But I'd not... And then I came to do my first uh real dressing, and I'll remember this for the rest of my life. It's in a tent, I don't believe you saw it before, but anyway, it was a huge tent outside Athens, and it was a man called Hunter, I'll always remember his name, a boy. He was in the ambulance corps, and he'd been uh, I think they put him into the 26th General Hospital. And he's um, and when I, he was the only boy in the ward, because the others, there was many other boys who had had enough to be in the front tent, you know. And I went over, and I had, that just made me a bit speechless, because it was the first big dressing, and I had to know exactly how to do it. And he had the bones sticking out of it, the top bones were sticking out of it, and it hadn't been, it hadn't been operated on, it hadn't been cut or anything. Um, which should be, it had not been cleaned and, you know, it should be, it hadn't been, the Greeks were terrible, the Greek surgeons did a lot of things, you see, and it had to be re-operated on again, there and then.

Sandra McGrath Cleaned up.

Justin O'Brien And but that old-fashioned surgery the Greeks had, they'd never learned. So, so this fellow, the most extraordinary happened about this.

Sandra McGrath Why wasn't someone in violent pain if they've got a bone sticking out of their arm?

Justin O'Brien Oh, no, you never have any symptoms, you know, with the terrible after a while. And when you've got terrible pain, they give you a lot of drugs, but he wasn't in any he was, well, he was in pain, but he wasn't in that sort of pain, because, of course... And when I got to him, his whole wound was covered in maggots. Well, that's good! That's very good, because it cleans the wound, it's an anti-infection, it's a maggot. Wonderful.

Sandra McGrath Bill, Bill, tell him to ring me back in about 30 minutes, please. Tell him I just can't come right now. Tell him I'm doing an interview.

Justin O'Brien So, uh, anyway, I took

Sandra McGrath Tony can come to lunch if he wants, but he can't, I can't talk to him.

Justin O'Brien So I I went ahead with the dressing.

Sandra McGrath With the maggots? Did you leave the maggots on?

Justin O'Brien No, I took the maggots off! I had to take the maggots off. I did all that. But, anyway, the wound was like a piece of meat from the butcher's shop. It was so fresh, beautiful. And when you when you are actively nursing people, you suddenly look at that, and you judge it from that. Because when the when you get gangrene, of course you've got that other. Anyway, um the extraordinary thing, he never would smile, he almost hated me. It was quite extraordinary. Because he was a boxer.

Sandra McGrath Oh God, that's terrible, he lost his livelihood.

Justin O'Brien Lost his arm. And when I came back years later to Australia, I was going, I went out to Hurstville to see my mother. Um and er also er the trip was about 20 years ago. I was going up the ramp to the railway station, I saw this man in front of me with one arm. And I went after him, I said, 'Excuse me, is your name so-and-so?'

Sandra McGrath Hunter.

Justin O'Brien Hunter. And I said, 'Do you remember that you were, you know, I nursed you?' And he wouldn't talk to me, he just walked away from me.

Sandra McGrath Oh, no.

Justin O'Brien Even then.

Sandra McGrath Even then.

Justin O'Brien After all that time, and I had lovingly looked after you though. I could've...

Sandra McGrath He was bitter, obviously.

Justin O'Brien It was almost like he was blaming me, you know, for his not having an arm, you know.

Sandra McGrath He wouldn't even discuss it?

Justin O'Brien No, he wouldn't even talk to me. He walked away from me. He walked away from me because, you know, he sort of didn't want to have anything to do with me at all. He didn't want to have anything to do with that memory, obviously.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Justin O'Brien He had just, no, he had no artificial arm, it was just in a was still in a, you know, with a nothing. What arm was it? It was the right hand, right arm. No, it was his left, his left. So, at least he was all right for the right. I think he took that first. Okay, um what what about, I mean, I'm going all over the place, aren't I?

Sandra McGrath Well, you were taken prisoner of war though, weren't you?

Justin O'Brien Yes, I was taken then then er

Sandra McGrath Were you taken prisoner of war in the Greek campaign?

Justin O'Brien In Greece, in the Greek, in a in a in a hospital in Kifissia. And er of course it was a terrible flurry when the Germans arrived, you know, wasn't too pleasant, was it? But they came, and they were all right, they took over, and they they were Austrians at first, Alpine troops, they behaved very well. Then the real Germans came in and they got into the city, they had they had curfews and, you know, what went on with that. Then they moved us from there down to er a place I was just looking at, over Piraeus, and it was a boys' reform school. It's frankly modern, they've got buildings that went back, it was in a great big courtyard. It went it had courtyards in between these two buildings that went back and back. And there were about six of these buildings that went back and we had, we we nursed about 2,000 patients at a time in there. It was a huge hospital.

Sandra McGrath Yeah. Did you did you Germans, Austrians, did you-?

Justin O'Brien Oh no, no. Only only Allies.

Sandra McGrath Only Allies?

Justin O'Brien Yeah, the Germans wouldn't trust this people with that. And er

Sandra McGrath Well, you weren't really in a prisoner of war camp, you were in-

Justin O'Brien Yes, I was! With barbed wire all around me.

Sandra McGrath You couldn't get out, though?

Justin O'Brien Of course I couldn't get out! My brother's got the barbed wire. And er anyway, it uh and we were there then for seven months.

Sandra McGrath Far out.

Justin O'Brien And I started er when the when the er so the hospital, the work was getting less and less, getting less and less as time went on, you know. And we did I can't tell you what the what the work was like when we did all the Crete campaign, you see, they brought them over in Junkers, the wounded from the planes, it was a big big operation. And they'd bring them over and they'd bring them in, you know, you'd be in bed, oh God, half starved and half dead from work, and you'd have to get out of bed to get down the carriage steps, up to your own ward, you know, and then you'd have to start dressing them, and start, you know, looking after them, because everyone had to get in, you know. And, well anyway, that was that. And I did some paintings in the end, and I did some paintings of er I started off by a pick, I think, er an awful, you know, under-officer, Unteroffizier. But there was rather a nice er German major. I liked him. And I said to him, 'I'd like to paint your portrait.' So I did it through somebody else, you know, and they arranged that. I was very nervous.

Sandra McGrath They did look good, for sure.

Justin O'Brien Oh yes, well they looked-

Sandra McGrath That uniform-

Justin O'Brien The most the most efficient and frightening things I've ever seen in my life, and that voice, the German accent, you know, it's such a rouse, with awful rows! Ooh! Anyway, I painted him, and er he was very pleased with it, I polished it up. And the first-

Sandra McGrath Did you make his medals very bright?

Justin O'Brien Oh, did I! I was quite shocked. And he, it was the the the the most extraordinary happened while I was paint- because you were clicking your heels, he was in the civil power, and clicking his heel. You were awful with that, but I wanted paints. That's the only way I could get the paints. So I did that.

Sandra McGrath So, if you did him did him the portrait, he would give you the paints.

Justin O'Brien Well, he no then he'd then he would then send down to Athens to try and get me some more paint, because I couldn't get any of it, you know. And I did this for that reason, and then er while I was sitting there during this period, well, I can't tell you how long it went on, you know, so it could have been a fortnight,

Sandra McGrath I'd have stayed there, I'd have lengthened it as long as possible.

Justin O'Brien well, there's another strange thing. There's a knock at the door, and an ordinary soldier, a German soldier came in, and clicked his heels and everything else, and, of course, the major, and he was handed a telegram. And the major read the telegram, and he stood up, and he clicked his heels to me! Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Did you get up and click your heels to him?

Justin O'Brien Oh God, clicking! Why would I want to? And he handed this, and it was the first, it was the first confirmation of the first VC in the Greek campaign, you see, who was a patient in the hospital. And I can't tell you how they respected the VC.

Sandra McGrath It was more more than the Iron Cross, oh yeah.

Justin O'Brien And er this was extraordinary, that I was the first man to see the the first VC confirmation. Of course, it was a VC indeed, you know. But I can't tell you the clicking that went on and the respect I had lost. The officer had nothing to do with it.

Sandra McGrath [laughs]

Justin O'Brien Anyway, um then I then did the Unteroffizier, and then I got more and more paints, and I was able to go on painting. And I painted Maoris and women from Crete and women from Cyprus, because they brought in other they brought in refugees, you know, and put them in a Oh, prisoners really, they brought them in and then

Sandra McGrath How many German officers did you paint?

Justin O'Brien Only one. Oh er er no oh no, in the period, I painted two Unteroffiziers. I painted two up in Poland when I finished up in Poland. Two in Poland and the two in Greece. And the two in Poland were nice, too. No, the they weren't both nice in Greece. One was nice and the other was a horror. Oh, he was a Nazi, but he wasn't a German, he was a Hungarian, I think. Or a Yugoslavian, who had switched over. He was a Nazi. And he was an absolute monster. He'd have kids coming round, and the plumber used to come round with his little boy, and they were starving. Because we were absolutely forbidden by our own officers to give any food away, because if we didn't eat what was given to us, we would we just couldn't go on nursing. I mean, we would have fainted, you'd not be able to work. So, and I couldn't eat the food anyway in the end. I used to bring down since I'd eat it, because it was tunny fish in brine.

Sandra McGrath Yes?

Justin O'Brien Tunny, you know, tuna fish.

Sandra McGrath Tuna fish.

Justin O'Brien In brine. And there was also um er then there'd be cheese, and the cheese would be a very high, a a very high

Sandra McGrath Goat's cheese?

Justin O'Brien uh smell. No, no, it wasn't. It was a much more complicated cheese than that. And then it would be just like you'd just been smelling up in the ward,

Sandra McGrath Mhm.

Justin O'Brien from the patients. And I couldn't eat that. Naturally, how could I eat that? I had to bring everything up, it was so awful. And I all I ate was a little bit of dry dry brown bread, that seemed to keep me alive. But I was able to work, I had to work. We had to keep on going. Well, anyway, when we finished, they were sent up to Salonika, and then they were

Sandra McGrath The Germans sent you then?

Justin O'Brien Yes.

Sandra McGrath Why did they have to move you out of that place?

Justin O'Brien Ah, they wanted to get rid of us, because we were we'd finished our work. We'd done all All the campaign was over, and they'd taken Greece over completely, and they'd taken Crete, and there was nothing else for us to do once all the patients had gone. So then we were sent up, and we went to different parts. I I was sent to a er to a fort in Poland, Toruń, a place called Toruń, where um Oh, dear, I was trying to think of the the famous man who came from there, I'll think of him later on. Anyway, it was an it was a medieval city with a great brick wall around it. I only saw it once, I was only ever in it once. I wanted to buy makeup for some other theatre, you know. But all these forts that were built around the city were built in the Franco- after the Franco-Prussian War.

Sandra McGrath Upside down?

Justin O'Brien Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Doing that Jeffrey's um Justin's

Justin O'Brien That's not for Jeffrey's stuff. [laughs]

Sandra McGrath [laughs] Justin's war, when he was prisoner of war during the war, it's fascinating.

Justin O'Brien Well, it's a that's just an ordinary story, you know, really. You you look at most people's stories in a war, but uh an extraordinary thing happened when we were going from er Athens to Piraeus, we were sent up by ca- in a cargo in a cargo ship, and we were sleeping on the decks, and we followed the coast round the river, and we came under You know Sounion, out on the coast?

Sandra McGrath No, I don't know anything about that.

Justin O'Brien The tip of Greece, you've got Well, there was Sounion, we were right right under Sounion. It was that's wonderful. And you know, I've been back to Greece many times since, and Greece now, you know, the whole of Athens has grown out and out and out, and it's lost, it was a little city then, and it was fascinating, but it's gotten much too big and ugly and out of hand, you know. Most cities are, I suppose, doing that. But I do, I've I've been through it and I'd looked down on it for seven months from the heights, you know, in this hospital. So, we went we're putting this saw one I was only ever in it once I wanted to buy makeup from that theater you know but all these forts that were built around the city were built in the Franco after the Franco-Prussian war

Sandra McGrath between that and Jeffrey um Justin that's not the Jeffrey stuff just in the war when he was prison war during the war

Justin O'Brien well it's just an ordinary story you know really you really look at most people's stories in a war But an extraordinary thing happened. When we were going from Athens to Piraeus, we were set up in a cargo ship, and we were sleeping on the decks. And we followed the coast round the area, and we came under, you know, Sounion, out on the coast?

Sandra McGrath No, I don't know any other part of the world.

Justin O'Brien Well, there was Sounion. We were right under Sounion. That's wonderful. And, you know, I've been back to Greece many times since, and Greece now, you know, the whole of Athens has grown out and out and out, and it's lost, it was a little city again, and it was fascinating, but it's got much too big an opening out of hand, you know. Most cities are, I suppose, doing that. But I did, I'd been through it, and I'd looked down on it for seven months from the heights, you know, on this hospital. So we went, we were put into cargo ships and we went round Sounion, and I remember one night we went through a strange little lock, a bridge went up and we went through, and I didn't know where we were, but next day we went on all the night. And the Germans were very frightened because they were frightened of English submarines around there, but I mean the English knew, they always knew, well they knew we were on that boat, they knew all the, everyone knew all these things, because they were their spies, they had spies everywhere. But it was extraordinary, then we went through there, we went on to, to Salonika. Two men tried, three men tried to escape and one drowned in the dark of the night. We could hear him drown, it was absolutely awful. And they kept sending out little boats, but he didn't even get the other two, who got away. And they used to go to monasteries. And the priest from Ireland was so pro-Allied, you know. But years later, when I went to Skyros with Jeffrey for the first time, we were going over onto the island of Euboea from the mainland. Well, the island at one point joins the mainland by a little tiny lock, it's a little bridge, and that's where I'd gone through, and I said to Jeff, "Stop, stop for God's sake! I've been through here before! It's the most peculiar sensation." And that's where it was. And that's where the men jumped off the ship? No, they jumped off later on, it was in a bay somewhere, and you couldn't tell at night because you thought you were in a bay, which you may not have been, and anyway, then we went on to Salonika. Salonika was ghastly, because they'd been people who'd been killed before, there were sometimes terrible things going on, and that wasn't too happy. And then we went, then we finished up in Toruń in Poland, of all places, and then I started painting there.

Sandra McGrath So there was no care of people there? You nursed during the war?

Justin O'Brien Yes, I was a nurse, but there was no nursing there at all, no, we were just in a, we were in an NCOs' camp, it was a big NCOs' camp, but then

Sandra McGrath Prison camp.

Justin O'Brien Mm. But we were, you see, we were, being Red Cross, we came under NCOs' protection.

Sandra McGrath You were actually with the Red Cross?

Justin O'Brien Yeah. Well, I mean, you're Red Cross in the sense you're covered by Geneva, the Convention of Geneva.

Sandra McGrath An NCO means a non-commissioned officer?

Justin O'Brien Non-commissioned officer.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I see.

Justin O'Brien Yeah, a non-commissioned officer.

Sandra McGrath A sergeant or a corporal, yeah.

Justin O'Brien I see. Yes. So if I, if I, you know, if I, if they, the only, the only work they could ask me to do would be medical work. And an NCO couldn't be asked to do anything. Well, he could be asked to do it, but he could refuse to do it. If they said, "You've got to go out and work on a farm," he only had to say no, because they were covered by the, they worked by the Geneva Convention, they were quite good. The Germans, they did that, and everything worked together, you know, and that's it. Anyway, I was there for two and a, two years, I was seven months in Greece and two years in, in Poland, and then suddenly the most extraordinary thing happened, I was exchanged in Spain, in Barcelona. They, they suddenly saw the exchange go through, one for one: a medical German for a medical Englishman or Australian.

Sandra McGrath And they knew which side they thought were getting the better deal. [laughs]

Justin O'Brien Well, they probably did. At that time, of course, the war was getting rather peculiar, you know, because it was getting more on our side. And the Russian front was getting really, really bad. You know, we had a railway that went right past our, almost the tip of our camp, which was where practically every great train went up to the Russian front, and Hitler used to pass, and I didn't know. That's where he used to pass, in his train, up to his headquarters. And you read, I read this in Shirer's book, did you read that?

Sandra McGrath Wasn't your whole concept of war that really everyone is very ignorant about what's going on then? I mean, each one living in a little pocket of...

Justin O'Brien Well, how would you know? No one knows what the war's about, really. You wonder what you're doing there anyway in the end. Because you heard a band play in Martin Place. That's what it really turned out, nobody wanted to be. Except I think Hitler was rather a menace, I must say that. And he could have done terrible things, but I suppose, I suppose even then, after a while, if you let things just settle, they'd all come back to some sort of orderliness after it again, I suppose, don't you think?

Sandra McGrath You didn't really have any, as far as any brutal experience through the Germans, though, did you?

Justin O'Brien Oh no, I didn't, no. Did you get to like them or no? No, not particularly, I didn't. No, I didn't.

Sandra McGrath Even the ones you painted? Didn't you paint another one in Poland?

Justin O'Brien I painted, er, old Scarface, who was a, I always thought Scarface was more pro-British, really. He was the, the sergeant, or sergeant major. And he was, he used to kick his own men, not us. [laughs] He'd kick the Germans in front of us. He was a kind of terrible brute, but he wouldn't ever touch us and he liked us, because we used to supply him with Red Cross parcels, when they came in in bulk, you see.

Sandra McGrath Red Cross what?

Justin O'Brien Parcels, you know.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I remember packing those up.

Justin O'Brien Did you? Yeah. Well, when they didn't come, which is, sometimes for six months nothing would come, you know, and you'd live on the German rations. Oh, my god! That's when I went from 13 stone to nine stone. I'd like to foster your fat! [laughter] Nine stone was rather thin, and er, so that was quite well. And er, but then you'd, you'd find the men, so they'd be playing, they'd be playing a Test match down these, inside these old forts they had sort of ovals, and they were, like we called them platzs, they called them Platz. And we used to turn them into playing basketball or cricket or football or whatever, and er they, the rules were changed a little bit for the size, you see. And er we were all sitting on the, on the hill, you know, it's like here here, on the side of these hills, but the hills were inside the fort. And you'd have, you'd have to have a drawing of it to see what it was. There were two of them, one on either side, and then inside there were tunnels that went down into this whole, er, er, what's-name, fort and so on. And then, er, the, er, this day we were all very, very hungry, hadn't had anything properly to eat, so except for the, for the German rations for something like six, six months. And they were playing a Test match between England and Australia, cricket. [laughs] Down there, and they're all [laughs] from weakness, they couldn't hit the [laughter] ball, but on they went, you know, [laughs] in their, in rather ridiculous stupid stupid way. Suddenly, way in the distance, we heard a thing go chug-chug-chug-chug-chug-chug-chug. And we knew what it was, it was the Caterpillar, that always, only ever came to us when it had Red Cross parcels. I have never seen anything like the change in everybody. Cricket bats were thrown down, people rushed off the field to the top, everyone got energy back again. [laughter] And we were all right. It was a, a really good,

Sandra McGrath Ship.

Justin O'Brien er, it was, what do they call that? That was a bulk issue. It sometimes came in what they called a bulk issue, not a personal parcel for each man, but a bulk. But if you got a bad German who hated the, you know, the English, if, if you got, I used to get cigarettes sent from my brother-in-law, he was in the Air Force in England, and he'd send me sometimes 500 cigarettes. And then this, if he was an ass to Germany, he would then go through every cigarette and he'd break it,

Sandra McGrath [groans]

Justin O'Brien looking for the, and because he knew there was nothing there, he knew there was nothing there. Well, that's just his own way to try to be mean, bad. And you watched him, it didn't matter, so as to smoke half of it, smoke the other. It's because you didn't get as much tobacco then, naturally, of course, because, you know, the two ends. [laughs]

Sandra McGrath When you went to, when you went to Spain, was the war nearly over then?

Justin O'Brien Er, '43.

Sandra McGrath When I went to Spain, no, well, no, there was another...

Justin O'Brien What was there? I went back to, I went back to, er, Egypt and I spent...

Sandra McGrath He was repatriated, then?

Justin O'Brien Repatriated. It was extraordinary, it was an exchange, a proper exchange. I mean, as I went, in Barcelona, as I went through, er, you know, on one, on one side, a German came around on the other side, and it was actually one for one, yes, that was done like that. And then when we got onto the English ship, you know, you what, the only moment you'd ever longed for was the moment of freedom. And, you know, we are contrary, aren't we? You know, really contrary. [sighs] But the Germans, because they got on their ship, and they all were singing in unison, and lifted their voices in Deutschland. They were not allowed to sing "Deutschland über alles", but they sang something like that. That could be rather too rude, wouldn't it, to sing that to us as we were going? But they were singing something. As their boat pulled out, it was absolutely marvellous, because it was like a, a musical comedy, you know, or a great comic opera. Full-throated and all in parts and And as our ship went out, someone started, "Waltzing Matilda" all day, you know, it's an awful noise, and about five voices took it up and someone said, "Ah, shut up." [laughter] That was the end of that. [laughter] And I liked it better than the German one, really, I liked that, "Ah, shut up." [laughter] And we all got this terrible reaction, you know, when you

Sandra McGrath You wanted to be back in the...

Justin O'Brien No! Not that at all! No, no, no, no, why didn't we feel happier? What was wrong with us? You know, suddenly you, the whole spirit was just dumped, you'd waited so long as well, and we were very well looked after, and the, the, um, priests came on board and they heard all our confessions, the ones who wanted it, the Spanish Jesuits, you know, and then, er, and then they gave us bottles, the Red, the Spanish Red Cross gave us beautiful bottles of Spanish brandy. We hadn't had a drink for two and a half years, you know, and, er, and the food on the boat was marvellous, to us it was, oh, marvellous. That white bread made me sick, I couldn't eat white bread, [laughs] it was like eating cake! [laughter] It was quite extraordinary. And, er, then we went back and we stayed two months in, er, Alexandria, something like that. Oh, God. And that was the, that's what, you see, I don't read, I can't read those Durrell books anymore, but that's when I first read them, what it was. That's the thi-, do you remember, in The Four Quartets?

Sandra McGrath Mm.

Justin O'Brien What I read, and that gave me the feeling of the, of the Durrell books, really, very, the whole, it had a wonderful feeling of that, a cosmopolitan feeling. I believe it's all gone now. And then back to Australia, and then back into the Army, and we did a re-, a re-, a retraining course, and they wanted to send us to New Guinea after that. And they sent quite a few of us through. And I went in and the, the officer said to me, "How do you feel, O'Brien?" And I said, I suppose, I did the, I did the wrong thing, [laughs] I said, "I feel terrible." [laughter] That's right, he said, something, and I got, I was sent then to Concord, to nurse in the big Concord Hospital, in the surgical department there. And I was there for a year and they let us out. Suddenly the POWs were, I don't know how it was done, but we were suddenly given our freedom. And I got out of the Army after, oh, must have been nearly five years, I think. About five years.

Sandra McGrath A long time, wasn't it?

Justin O'Brien It is a long time, but it was a, quite a full time, yeah. It's a funny, the other day, I went into Macquarie Galleries and someone, one of the women said, "Oh, Alec Murray's been ringing you again. Er, there's going to be a, er, a re-, reunion of the POWs on the 22nd of October." And I thought, oh, God, you know. And I think I'll go.

Sandra McGrath Oh, that'd be quite fun.

Justin O'Brien Because I'm wondering how many are left. Our, because our senior, commanding officer's dead, old Brooke Moore, who was a marvellous surgeon, magnificent surgeon, and because I used to work in the theatre quite a lot.

Sandra McGrath Why do you think men often think that this is the best time of their life, or men who've been in the war really never get over the fact of having been in a war? Do you think that's true?

Justin O'Brien Of what? It wasn't the best time in my life.

Sandra McGrath No, but for a lot of people, that sort of...

Justin O'Brien Well, I, look, the first night I arrived, yeah, when I was put into the into the, into the huts at Greta, not Greta, the, wherever it is, just outside Sydney, where all the sold- where the soldiers go, where they join up.

Sandra McGrath Ingleburn.

Justin O'Brien I actually felt very sick, you know, and I couldn't believe what I'd done, what I'd put myself into, listening to that drum and that trumpet. But the men, I suddenly realised, even though I didn't know it quite clearly, obviously, in my own brain, they were bored. They wanted to get away from everything. They were bored of having four children and going to an office every day, or driving a tram. A lot of those men did things like driving trams, worked in mental hospitals, because they were, particularly mental hospital nurses, men, like we had a lot of those, they were, they were not very, some were quite good men, but a lot of them were rather sadistic and brutal. Um, but that's what they did it for. They could get away from this dull boredom. And what, I think what's happening now, of course, is that we can't have another, a war every 25 years, you can't do it any longer, because we'd blow ourselves to pieces. We'd have nothing left. And that habit has to stop. And, of course, what they do now is have little wars all over the place. They have them on aeroplanes, they have them in Lebanon, they've got them, well, everywhere I can think of, they've got one going on.

Sandra McGrath Mm, haven't they? When did you decide to go live in Rome?

Justin O'Brien About, oh, I went over When I went with Jeff, er, 14 years ago to Greece, and I came back to Rome, and we stayed for six Do you remember Annamaria? We stayed in her flat. She lived lived in Via Panisperna for about 10 months, and then I came back again, and then I was here for about Well, I went back to Cranbrook, and I was teaching one I was I was there for another two years, I think, and then I was And then I suddenly I went into a classroom and I I wasn't teaching that classroom, but I saw this boy and I said, "What's your name?" because I thought I knew his face. And he said, "My name's Alexander." And I said, "What's your first name?" And then I said I when I said, "What's your What was your father's name?" And he said, "Cam." He was about 13. "Cam," he said. I said, "Good God, I taught your father." So I said, "Good God, that's it. Resign and go away." Because once you start doing that Mr Chips thing, and I was getting sick of it anyway, and I was losing, you know, you lose your energy. It is energy, a lot of it, er, that teaching, and so I decided that day that I would then get out of school teaching altogether. And then I went up to Bishop and just said I must resign, and I'd leave at the end of the year. And then I went back to Greece for I went with Donald Friend. I joined Donald. He came from Bali, and I went to the island of Lesbos, and we stayed there for a month. And I went from Lesbos I said we I loved it, it was a beautiful island, Lesbos, to travel in, and I said, "Look, let's go back to where I was before. Let's go back to Skyros because it's beautiful." And we went back there, and he stayed about another month there, but he wasn't very happy. Because Donald likes his servants, you know, and, uh, you know, he's got about 16 or 18 or something on the island in Bali, but there were no We all were becoming the servants. So I happened to talk to him on the beach...

Justin O'Brien who could find a coin of over 2,000 years old on the Acropolis, walking up onto the Acropolis in Athens. I don't know any man with the imagination. I don't know anybody. But he did. And it was a big coin.

Sandra McGrath Good Lord. Beautiful. How in the world had that been overlooked?

Justin O'Brien He lost it. Blast it. Ah, but anyway, but you see, and I can see Donald, you know, we had a long— Well, he came to see me after we had the— It wasn't a row, it was just a sort of coming to terms. He didn't come to any terms with me, I can't. He had been told what I thought, because I had to. But he was in the wrong place, you see, and Donald flourishes and blossoms. How? Well, not physically of course, the climate of Bali, because I think it's very bad for him, but he does in other ways, emotionally and in the mind, and he can, his imagination can picture himself in all sorts of, as of all sorts of situations. And I think one of them is lying on the top of a great, big pyre, burning as a raja at the end. [laughter] And I told, I told him all this, you see, and he agreed with it. Henceforth. You know him, don't you? Fairly well. Yes. Well, so we just, we had that sort Then I went back. Tell you who came down and joined me then: Brian Dunlop. And Brian came down and joined me, and he stayed on with me in this old peasant's house. I worked at the same house. And then we went back Then I went back to Rome. Thanks very much. And that Brian came back with me. And then we, I said, "Let's get a flat." And we started looking around. And I'll tell you who helped me: Raymond Myers, this baritone here, you know, who's in Sydney. He's very good. But he he he had lived in Rome for many, many years. And so, "Look, I'll look around, I'll, let's go to the building where I lived in before, near the railway station." And I got a four-room flat for 50,000 a month, very cheap. In lire, yeah. And I had that for years. And when I finished with that, and I eventually got a much bigger flat over near where I am now. In fact,

Sandra McGrath Would you ever think of coming back to live here?

Justin O'Brien Not at the moment.

Sandra McGrath You'd like to roam or be expatriate?

Justin O'Brien Not much. In a way I don't. I feel very schizophrenic. I come out here, well, I come out here and I I don't, I can't think of painting here again. That's what's wrong. I've got to go, I want to go back there to paint. But I love...

Sandra McGrath Because the subject matter here, it's hard to relate?

Justin O'Brien No, I can't. No. I mean, apples are apples, I know, and pears are pears, but it's what I want to do with it. It fits in better over there. With me, I mean, it's, you know, this is always a bit of a problem. It's probably changing now, people don't feel the same way. If you dared say that a few years ago, Australians were very bitter about that, that you should dare to want to live anywhere else, you know. Which is so silly. This is what it is, really. You'd think, when you think, when you start talking about politics, that Australia really was 12,000 miles away. But it isn't really 12,000 miles away, you've got aeroplanes, you can get magazines, you can get newspapers, information can be got very, very quickly. Anyway, I don't know, I, I...

Sandra McGrath How long has it been since you've been back?

Justin O'Brien Oh, two years. I come back every two years.

Sandra McGrath Every two years.

Justin O'Brien Yeah, I have a show every two years. And last year I had, two years ago I had that in Melbourne, at Realities in Melbourne. This time I'm having, you know, the Macquarie. You're going to be here, are you?

Sandra McGrath I think so. Yes.

Justin O'Brien It's on the 12th.

Sandra McGrath But, tell me, what's your reaction to the difference in the Australian lifestyle versus...

Justin O'Brien I hate that word "lifestyle".

Sandra McGrath Would you mind saying the way the Australians live? I...

Justin O'Brien Australians live.

Sandra McGrath That's better, yeah.

Justin O'Brien And I hate the word "high-rise", you know. [laughter] I can't take that at all.

Sandra McGrath Now, what's the difference?

Justin O'Brien I think the Australians live extremely comfortably, they're they're very rich, really, the ones I meet, too, and I think a lot of people in the suburbs do also.

Sandra McGrath Suburban Italy, yeah.

Justin O'Brien Yes, but the thing I miss, of course, I know this continent is probably the oldest continent in the world, but I don't know that, not really. I only know it by when the geologists tell me. I can't feel it, you see. But when I go to Italy and Greece, I really feel the age. I can feel that men have walked and trod on that, those, those continents, you know. I can't feel it here at all.

Sandra McGrath Why do you feel, why do you need that?

Justin O'Brien Because I want to feel at home. I want to feel I belong to something, and I don't really feel I belong to this, but I belong to that.

Sandra McGrath Because more people have been there?

Justin O'Brien Well, yes, I feel as though, you know, we're we're the the our, an enormous amount of our heritage and the way we think all comes out of there.

Sandra McGrath Well, of course, it comes from the Arabs, it comes from all sorts of things, does it not? But it, but it's all from there, it doesn't come from here. It doesn't come from the Aborigines, does it?

Justin O'Brien I hope not. [laughter] I don't want to link with witch doctors at all. No, I think that it's that that that's the thing. There's only a feeling, I mean, another person might want the idea of this moon-like existence, this moon-like, not existence, this moon-like, moon-like, moon-like landscape in a way. To me, it is often. You get that lonely feeling, you get in the bush here. I don't know if you know it at all.

Sandra McGrath Yes, I do know it.

Justin O'Brien You come from America, don't you?

Sandra McGrath Yes, but I've gotten to know the bush here.

Justin O'Brien Yeah. And as Laurie, as Laurie said, it's grey and waiting, and it is grey and waiting. It's really, it's still waiting, to me. When I go out into it, I still feel that, oh, strange, unearthly sort of feeling, that I'm lonely all the time. And I don't like it, you know, I like to feel I belong.

Sandra McGrath It is that bush that people always paint and especially come back to it out of that, you know. It's It is the most enigmatic thing. It's very peculiar.

Justin O'Brien Enigmatic, oh no, it is, it's very much. And I can see why they do it, and I can see why some, you know, I think Fred Williams, for instance, gets something incredibly good out of that, too, you know. You know, I mean, all his new stuff?

Sandra McGrath Yes.

Justin O'Brien I've always loved it. Is it true Lloyd Rees is dead?

Sandra McGrath Who? Lloyd Rees? I don't know. No one seems to quite know because he's in London.

Justin O'Brien Is he?

Sandra McGrath Mm.

Justin O'Brien Funny that, though.

Sandra McGrath So it really has nothing to do with the sort of city life, it's just the overall atmosphere, the continent.

Justin O'Brien Well, when I when I Well, I when I get Well, I don't know. Uh, you know, as you get older, you want the things that you knew when you were younger, I don't know. We all do that. But now, for instance, you see, I really don't like the city now very much. I don't like the skyscrapers very much. I feel that I don't know what it is, they're not very beautiful, to me. They look they look better from here, but it all depends where you are. Now, from Mervyn's, I think they look awful. You know where you live. Well, they look awful from over from there. And so many of the old buildings and the old things that were I thought were lovely old buildings have been pulled down. I'm not getting in the way of wanting to get in the way of progress, I'm not sure what progress means really. [laughter]

Sandra McGrath Just rather none of it had happened.

Justin O'Brien Well, that's true, you know. Yes, just rather not.

Sandra McGrath Yes? All right.

Justin O'Brien You'd better go.

Sandra McGrath I'd better go after this. Hold on a minute.

Justin O'Brien Not today, because there's a bit of atmosphere around. But the when you get a bit of wind and suddenly the, you know, sun comes out, it's the most extraordinary light I think I've ever seen in my life. And it isn't the same as the Greek light. And people say, "Oh, you know, it's the same, very much like the Greek light." It's not. It's got a thing of its own here. And I think it's more in Sydney than anywhere else.

Sandra McGrath It's not in Melbourne.

Justin O'Brien No. Melbourne's got more, more much more atmosphere, I don't know why, but this seems as though the whole wind's just swept everything away. I mean, there's there can't be any pollution or anything by the look of it. It looks so clear.

Sandra McGrath It's the highest. I've often thought, you know how people in the late in the 19th century went to Paris for the light, for the painters went there, American painters went there too, to experience the light that was sort of diffused objects and was obviously for them different to American light. And I've often thought that this is the only other place I've ever been in the world, aside from Paris, that does have a really strange, peculiar light.

Justin O'Brien You mean it's a thing of its own? It's not like the Parisian thing at all, is it?

Sandra McGrath No, no, no, no, no.

Justin O'Brien It is a thing of its own and it's startling.

Sandra McGrath It's startling to anyone who comes into it, especially if he's very visual.

Justin O'Brien See, I've been away for so long, I'm looking at the the Italian light, which is all diffused and soft usually, and misty. And here, uh, well, as I say, today is not

Sandra McGrath It's not typical.

Justin O'Brien not typical. But when it's a clear, blue day,

Sandra McGrath But even a grey day

Justin O'Brien the sky is bluer than anywhere in the world, huh?

Sandra McGrath A grey day in London or Paris or Rome is very different to this grey. It's a low grey.

Justin O'Brien Very grey, yeah. Then I've been watching this well, for the last few years I've been coming out, every time I look across from Mervyn's in the morning, I'm quite staggered.

Sandra McGrath Do you know what happened to Sydney Ball, who's an abstract painter here? Went to live on a loft for two years in New York. He came back with his exhibition and had to redo the whole thing, because he'd been painting in New York light, and when he got here he was so staggered that of the light that he didn't like the things that he'd painted in New York.

Justin O'Brien Yeah, that's extraordinary, isn't it, after all that?

Sandra McGrath Um, and he went back and redid everything and raised the uh

Justin O'Brien That was wrong, though. He shouldn't have done that.

Sandra McGrath No, but he did, though. He just couldn't, you know, he wanted what he felt here, and he probably never realized the light here until he'd been there.

Justin O'Brien Now, when I bring my pictures out here now, I get this terrible reaction because I look at the result and look at how dull they look, because this this this light

Sandra McGrath Well, it makes it Well, this is what happened to Syd Ball, and then he went back into these pictures and intensified the colours, and they had a nice, actually curious quality because he had

Justin O'Brien How would they then show when he took them back? If he took them back there, they would be all right.

Sandra McGrath They were Well, you see, only in Australian painting, this is Sydney Australian painting has this really Well, they all try to get it in some fashion, this intensity here. It's just It's blinding. It's truly blinding.

Justin O'Brien Yes, it it it it's tense. And I, you know, living here, of course, you don't you don't You're used to it, and that's it.

Sandra McGrath I've always noticed it because I came from

Justin O'Brien Well, then you came from somewhere else.

Sandra McGrath I came from somewhere else and it's always, you know, it's intrigued me.

Justin O'Brien Yeah. Yeah, mm. Now, I have to go to the gallery, she wants to talk to me. I want to tell you something: Mervyn's not coming, does he?

Sandra McGrath No, he didn't.

Justin O'Brien I'm sorry, because he told me that I'm very remiss. He's so busy at the shop that he

Sandra McGrath He wants some eggs.

Justin O'Brien On Saturdays, though, you can get eggs. Mm, that's right. I keep thinking it's Sunday, you know.

Sandra McGrath You're a background in painting. Yeah. Where were we onto? Painting?

Justin O'Brien Light.

Sandra McGrath Light. We were talking about Who are your favourite painters?

Justin O'Brien You mean from what period?

Sandra McGrath Any period.

Justin O'Brien Well, you mean the Titians and the Raphaels and the Michelangelos?

Sandra McGrath Do you have a Do you like any modern painters?

Justin O'Brien Yes, uh, well, you see, I don't, I must say, I don't know very much about the about very modern painters, because I don't take any magazines and I almost never look at them. Often I don't understand what they're doing, and uh and I find they make me a bit confused, you know, and I feel uh that I'd just rather go on doing what I'm doing in my own way. And now I'm near, I'm nearly I'm in the 60th year, so I think I may as well go on. I'm too old then to shift, you know. And I'm not a romantic painter, and I'm glad of that, because if I'd been a romantic painter, I probably would have been dead by now, blown out with the best or something. And I do think...

Sandra McGrath How do you mean by romantic?

Justin O'Brien Well, I think that, well, you know, the romantic in the in the accepted sense that of Delacroix and people like that.

Sandra McGrath It's the spirit of painting.

Justin O'Brien Well, yes, the spirit is different. You know, you look at a Delacroix and look at a Piero della Francesca. Or or you could look at someone like David or Ingres, you know. I mean, you know what I mean by that. But whereas I feel Ingres and David are very cold, I never feel that about Piero della Francesca. There's a different spirit, that's all. But if you look at Delacroix, it's another sort of It's like a Van Gogh or It's And of course, I think Delacroix was probably one of the most successful in the fact that he lived till he was in his 60s, I think. I think he was in his 60s when he died, and he was still painting as a romantic. Whereas other people, like Van Gogh, might eventually deranged by the by the by blowing his brains out.

Sandra McGrath You view yourself as a classicist?

Justin O'Brien Not as a classicist in the real sense, but I mean, I feel that I've I've got to think about things more, you know, as I'm doing them. That's what I mean.

Sandra McGrath Not working on a direct experience?

Justin O'Brien No, I can't No, I can't work quickly anymore. I used to once. But I don't know whether it's because you know more, or it's just, or because it's just that your whole being changes, you know? Whether you have to think more about something, because I mean, perhaps you can put something down in two seconds, but if you spent 50 years, you you might miss. Very possible.

Sandra McGrath Do you think that Arthur Boyd once said to me that painters are always trying to recapture that first flash of innocence that they get as a young painter, when everything is so exciting, they want to linger it? There's an innocence of vision.

Justin O'Brien I don't know. No, I don't. No, I don't. Well, I can see what he means by that, because that's his sort of painting. He's a romantic painter, very much so. Now, I'm Well, yes, if if I can see it from his point of view. No, I don't do that. No, I don't. I

Sandra McGrath What moves you to do a subject then? What moves you to make a painting? Why paint?

Justin O'Brien Well, I paint because I must paint. There's only one answer to that, and I've always known this: I must paint. And the difficulty now that I have, or not the difficulty, I suppose it is a difficulty, I get a worry and an anxiety. You see, when I've I've just finished 20 months of work, and I knew, I didn't When I went back from doing my last exhibition in Melbourne, I said, "What am I going to paint?" It's the same thing again, because no one gives you the subject matter. The artist is given a double problem: he not only has to paint, he's got to find out what he's got to paint. Well, in the days of Piero della Francesca and Raphael and things like that, they told them what to paint. They sometimes told them what colours to paint, and it made no difference to the quality of the painting. Of course, nowadays we're all such great expressionists and such geniuses that no one can tell you anything anymore, you know. No one can tell me anything anymore. Well, if you tell me how to do the other thing, that's silly. I'd love someone to come and tell me, and I'd love to have a go at it, even if it was a commission. It has to be a commission, it's got to be a thing, it's got to be a thing between two human beings or a community of human beings with a, with a human being. It's got to be something like that. Of course it has to be. But I, I want people to understand my pictures, and I want to be able to communicate. And I, I sometimes say this to people, look at Joan Sutherland, let's stand in the middle of the Sahara Desert on the top of one of those hills, sand hills, and she had to sing the Bell Song from Lakmé, and there was no one round her. Well, it would be rather a waste of time, wouldn't it? She wouldn't want to, because there's no one to hear it. Unless she gets the pleasure herself. And that's really, uh, uh, no, that, that, that... I often think with a lot of modern painting, and I may, you probably don't agree with me here, but I think a lot of it is so esoteric that I can't, I think the secret is with the artists, and I can't find it. If you'd only tell me what it was, I'd get there. I'm only talking about a few of them. I'm not talking about, oh talking, I'm talking about a lot of them and not about a few of them, because I think there's probably very good ones. But I say I mustn't talk...

Sandra McGrath What do you think motivates the artists then?

Justin O'Brien Oh, all sorts of things motivate them. You can't say one thing motivates a man.

Sandra McGrath What, what do you think?

Justin O'Brien It may be sex, it may be line, it may be colour.

Sandra McGrath Well, do you feel like the Baudelairean thing, you, you're sort of, uh, working from the superconscious, as the rest of the people...

Justin O'Brien No, I don't know that.

Sandra McGrath Hux- Huxley and people say that the artist works from the superconscious, not from the subconscious. Yeah. That the artist is really a very different human being to the ordinary being, who's described as, the sort of the role of the artist being different.

Justin O'Brien Oh, I find that, I don't know, I don't understand that. I find it too hard to define.

Sandra McGrath You don't feel that there's any special role in, in that's, uh, evolution of society or is, is, uh, fostered by the artists, or in fact actually exists?

Justin O'Brien Well, I can't answer because I, I haven't thought about it that way. No, it doesn't, doesn't, doesn't come into my head that way.

Sandra McGrath Well, how would you see then art in relation to sort of evolution of human beings?

Justin O'Brien Well, I, yes, I'm, I suppose that's true. I have, you know, you I've watched them. And I'm, well, I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, this evolution.

Sandra McGrath Well, I'm really just, uh, actually balls up about six

Justin O'Brien Six different what?

Sandra McGrath six differing, uh, concepts of the role of the artist in society, so to speak, that's the general title, as seen by Baudelaire or by, uh, somebody else, or just a sociologist, or Freud, or anybody else.

Justin O'Brien Well, I don't, I'm sorry, I, I really, I can't talk about that because I don't, when I think about painting and art, I don't think in that sense at all. I don't. And I, I have, uh, it doesn't come into my mind. I, I think that I want, that, well, is, you mean what I want to do? Well, what I, all I know, well, no, I know, but what I would want to do is, well, I, it's when I feel the beauty in, in certain objects, the beauty of fruit, or the beauty of the landscape, uh, and I'm tra- I'm traditionalist, of course, and, uh, I find this awfully hard to, to, uh, express, really, but, uh, I suppose the reaction comes from the, the reaction comes from the, from a grouping of things. It, it is tradition, I mean, that's the point. It's, I don't suppose I'm, in that sense, terribly creative. I was, read an article the other day about Colin Lanceley and trying to find a new form or a new concept of art. I can see exactly what he means by that, you know. And, but he says in one part of that, "I don't know, I'm not sure what I'm doing, I don't know why I do it." Uh, I suppose I don't really know why I do it in that sense, either. Even though I'm just going on in a sort of traditional way. I think that you can still find things, new things, in a, in a traditional manner. I think you can still break through in other, you know, in other, you believe in that, don't you?

Sandra McGrath Yes, yes, yes.

Justin O'Brien Yes, I think you can. Um, I must say this, that I sometimes feel completely out of it and rather old-fashioned when I do look at some of Jeffrey Smart's magazines up in that farmhouse, uh, Art International and so on, you see. And I can't cope with it, because I don't, but I don't care. You know the quotation, you know the one, that book the woman wrote, uh, the mistress of Picasso, called Picasso?

Sandra McGrath Oh, I think they've all written one, but yeah.

Justin O'Brien Well, I know they have. But it was rather good that er, they went and they had a me-, they had a, they went to see, they went to see Matisse, and he brought out this thing on Pollock. Yes. And, well it wasn't only on Pollock, I think it was on Pollock, and he said, you know, Matisse had a ma-, it was, it showed a Catholic brain, which had a very broad sense, you know, he said, "Well look, we have come to the end of an era. We are the end of an era." And he said, "We are not, we can't judge this." And that was wisdom to me, I don't know.

Sandra McGrath Yes, it was.

Justin O'Brien Now, I feel this terrifically. You see, I, when I look at these, lot, a lot of these modern things, I really feel, I'm, you know, God, I'm not nearly as wise as Matisse, but I mean I really feel, look, I don't understand it, it's too late for me to be meddling about with that. And if I did do it, it would be so phoney what I did, it would, I mean you'd say, I'd be disgusted with myself. And, but I don't feel anything towards it. So why should I do it? I mean, I must feel towards the thing I'm doing. Don't you think you must?

Sandra McGrath Oh well, it wouldn't make any sense.

Justin O'Brien Yeah. Otherwise, it just, doesn't make sense, and it's just like a, a frigid digit, there's nothing there. But that, I always remember that, that remark of his, now I thought, that's wisdom, and there's no condemnation, there's no judgment. It's just, look, I don't understand that, I do understand all that, my past, you know, I know a lot about my past, and why, why I'm doing what I'm doing. I don't know whether he understood what he, why he was doing what he was doing either, really. Because you asked the question a minute ago, and I told you about Colin Lanceley. I don't know really why one day, why did I draw the boat when I was a little boy of five or six around here in Elizabeth Bay? I don't know why. I just wanted to. Wanted to put it down, and I did it. And I always remember that boat, too. Really clearly. It had been there for years, and it was there for years and years and years later. It was a derelict.

Sandra McGrath Mm. You're certainly living in the right part of the world for all the things you like to do.

Justin O'Brien Well, that's why I live there, I think. Don't you? That's probably the reason I live, I don't know. See, I can still, I went up to...

Sandra McGrath Well, in the end, one's life, way of living, in the end, in some way, must be just to be in the total reflection of one's art, functions.

Justin O'Brien Of one's art?

Sandra McGrath Mm. It would be very strange if you were painting the way you did and lived out in the Australian bush.

Justin O'Brien Probably. I don't know. Well, yes, I suppose you're right. Just thinking of m- monks in monasteries, and so on. Of course, they lived within their own, within their own, in their own mystic brains, I suppose.

Interviewer Mummy! Anthony got bitten by the dog, the watchdog, on here, on his knee.

Sandra McGrath Go tell Daddy.

Justin O'Brien Do you mean that... Is that one of your children, Sandra?

Interviewer It's on the, the food shop one.

Sandra McGrath Oh, he shouldn't have been back there. He knows that watchdog is there to bite anybody who's out there. Get Daddy, and, he may have to have a tetanus shot.

Interviewer Okay.

Justin O'Brien There's no other thing here, is there?

Sandra McGrath Huh?

Justin O'Brien There's no, uh, what's that awful dog's disease?

Sandra McGrath No, there's no rabies here, thank goodness.

Justin O'Brien But in, in Italy we have, but you have to go straight away and have those awful things in your stomach.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I know. I've had that when I lived in New Orleans.

Justin O'Brien What?

Sandra McGrath When I lived in New Orleans.

Justin O'Brien You get bitten?

Sandra McGrath Mm, by my own dog. Got rabies.

Justin O'Brien Got rabies? Oh, my God.

Sandra McGrath Mm, there were three of us, and all of us had to have rabies.

Justin O'Brien Oh God. Anyway...

Interviewer Mummy, can you open the door?

Sandra McGrath Go roun- go around.

Justin O'Brien Is that one of yours, too?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, they've got five.

Justin O'Brien How many have you, five? [laughter] They keep coming in, I'm wondering how, look whether you've, running a school.

Sandra McGrath [laughter] No, they're all here. Oh, they're all You can notice how excited he gets, so I hope that he No one's moved.

Justin O'Brien [laughter] I haven't heard the dogs have been savage. Tie the dog, tie the child up, they've tied him up to a tree tonight. You've tied the child up to a tree? Yes.

Sandra McGrath No, it is a savage dog, remember? Yeah.

Justin O'Brien Is he? Why do they keep him?

Sandra McGrath 'Cause it protects the, uh, shop. But Anthony shouldn't have been back there, 'cause the dog was tied on a chain.

Justin O'Brien Oh, it's on a chain. Well, how nasty that is. I hate people having dogs like that.

Interviewer Tony, you'd better go see. He's coming.

Sandra McGrath 'Cause I think he'll have to have a tetanus shot in a while.

Justin O'Brien Oh, dear. Where'd you take him, for that?

Sandra McGrath To the local doctor.

Justin O'Brien Your husband's just arrived back.

Sandra McGrath From Tokyo. It's all...

Justin O'Brien Poor man.

Sandra McGrath Mm.

Justin O'Brien You said he's not? He's suffering from jet lag. I had a hell of a, when I came back this time. From, uh, I came from London direct. Oh, nearly killed me.

Sandra McGrath Yes, well, I'm not really good at flying anymore. It used not to worry me. It's age, I'm sure of it.

Justin O'Brien Well, it must be age with me. I'm in my sixtieth year, that's what I've reached, which is rather good.

Sandra McGrath Tell me, about Cranbrook. I was talking to, uh, Harry Nicholson yesterday, who they're organising this Cranbrook thing.

Justin O'Brien Harold, or, or, or, um, or, um, what's his, Nick Nicholson? What's Nick's name? You mean the teacher?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Justin O'Brien Harry, Harry, Harry.

Sandra McGrath Harry. And he was saying how you really inspired the whole sort of Cranbrook thing with your sort of concept of teaching and your views on art, too, that it was sort of unique at the time the way, uh, well it was still unique, but, uh, that it sort of infused the whole the school, with the sort of meaning that he's never had before.

Justin O'Brien Well, I, you know Brian Hone was headmaster there, and he was I thought a very good headmaster. Um, and I was 28, 27 when I arrived there, and I thought he was very good. And, uh, and Eric Wilson taught there. He was teaching when I, and I went out to see Eric, and then I took over from him. He was really ill already, and had been unwell in hospital with cancer. And he taught at The King's as well, anyway he wanted to get out of Cranbrook. But he really hadn't made, there was no impact made at all, it was all, and I arrived there and I was, I've never been so full of energy in my life.

Sandra McGrath Right back from where?

Justin O'Brien From the war.

Sandra McGrath Yeah, yeah.

Justin O'Brien And I'd never, I'd never, I was really so, and I knew that I could teach children. I don't know why, I just knew I c- I could do it, and I had, all, uh, I had ideas, not specifically clear, but felt. This is strange, you know, so they were more felt than, and that then you could write them down. And, um, I started. And we started in the old carpentry shop. It was all very difficult and very complicated, but so the school was...

Sandra McGrath Is it much better now?

Justin O'Brien Oh, no, it's not. No, well, then, that's only because they let it go to pot. Er, but it, it's a mess. I, I had a look at it the other day. One of the things about, this is deviating, but one of the, the, the real things about teaching children is that you've got to know exactly where every child's picture is, every child's model is, because every child is every-, is himself. He's nobody else. And if you've lost his little pottery, or his little bit of this, it hurts him. And then you become a bad teacher.

Sandra McGrath Mm.

Justin O'Brien So every-, everyone's got to be, and over, say, 500 children, everyone must be known.

Sandra McGrath Mm.

Justin O'Brien And if you're going to sort of bring out pictures out of a, out of a folders every week, and the child is going to find them all muddled up with other forms, well, you may as well just go home, and give up teaching. Because it's, that's just the practical beginning. And I found that all, oh, such a mess at Cranbrook. Mm, goodness me. And that is bad, bad teaching. That's the first thing I would teach, I would say to any teacher who starts, for God's sake, get everything into order in that way before you start. And have the room tidy, too. And you just say to the children, "Do you want to keep this or do you want to destroy it?" You'd never destroy what they've done themselves.

Sandra McGrath They're not very important, really, you know, they're only little adults.

Justin O'Brien That's all they really are.

Sandra McGrath What?

Child [screaming]

Justin O'Brien Someone has been bitten by a snake. What?

Child Our big, our puppy and Duncan got bitten by that watchdog from the fruit shop.

Sandra McGrath On what?

Child On the neck!

Sandra McGrath On the neck? What's going on?

Child I'm starving to death! Get me a yoghurt!

Sandra McGrath Well, go get Daddy. I can't handle that sort of thing, I can't stand blood.

Justin O'Brien Have you got any snakes around here, too?

Tony Oh God, Sandra with your nursing training outside here. Thank God you've been in here.

Justin O'Brien Have you got any sutures? I've got the...

Sandra McGrath Darling, you and Justin better go out to the dogs, the children have all been bitten by this... ...dog. You and Justin, Justin's a nurse.

Justin O'Brien Surgical nurse.

Sandra McGrath Go on, quickly, Tony. We can't have two dogs and children being savaged by the local fruit shop dog.

Child I mean the watchdog.

Sandra McGrath I'm sorry you come back from Japan, aren't you? Dogs in Japan don't bite anyone.

Justin O'Brien No.

Sandra McGrath Justin, please go, Tony said he wants thanks.

Justin O'Brien All right. Where is it?

Sandra McGrath Out in the back street. I can't bear it. Justin was a surgical nurse.