Fred Williams

Rudy Komon We're testing 1, 2, 3. Interview with Fred Williams, Rudy Komon Gallery, May 1st, 1978.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I'm trying to talk to Fred at that stage. He's going to be going on a bit, unless he's in the same stage, which actually might have worked out very well.

Fred Williams It runs through my mind that 4:30 might be a bit late for me, eh?

Sandra McGrath You're going to be late too, eh? Yeah. So we're now going to have a sober and sombre interview. One of the things before I start is, I haven't been able to get a photographer today at the...

Fred Williams Well, I don't like having my photograph just taken anyway.

Sandra McGrath I know, but you have to to have one of those things done. The thing is, how long are you in Sydney for?

Fred Williams No, I'm going home tomorrow.

Sandra McGrath Oh, they're going to kill me.

Fred Williams Why don't you get one of the pictures?

Sandra McGrath Well, we wanted you in the room with the pictures. It really does, I mean, it's very visual, that page. Anyway, that's my problem. That's not yours really.

Fred Williams I just look like a fat slob in this, I don't think it's probably true.

Sandra McGrath No, it isn't, no. Why don't you care so much about being photographed?

Fred Williams I don't like being...

Sandra McGrath Why?

Fred Williams For obvious reasons, that's why. Yeah, I just don't photograph too well.

Sandra McGrath Oh. Oh, I see. I didn't think that you'd have vanity as being one of your points.

Fred Williams Oh, no, vanity's not one of them.

Sandra McGrath Um...

Fred Williams Well, you know, I suppose it's because I basically... ...you know, I'd always like to think that I... You're given a choice, really, haven't you? You're either a serious worker or a public figure, and I think a few paragraphs you have in the... poised in the middle of your work, I don't have to think too much of it.

Sandra McGrath It's only a bit of that work that you've got downstairs next door, I think. It's all recent work, isn't it?

Fred Williams Particularly, yes. But it's only part of the show. It's because I can't put it in this gallery, you know.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Fred Williams It'll all come together in Melbourne.

Sandra McGrath So you're having a larger show?

Fred Williams A bigger show in Melbourne, yeah. Well, it's this. That's only about half of the show.

Sandra McGrath This plus...

Fred Williams This plus another... more than half, actually.

Sandra McGrath When's that going to be?

Fred Williams Four weeks, five weeks. I've had a lot of shows, you know, getting them all over with. Getting them all over with.

Sandra McGrath How do you get them all over with? Aren't you having a show next year?

Fred Williams Oh, no, no. It takes me three years to... Of course I've got those shows going in America, but that's nothing to do with me, you know. I'd expect them to go at least one of the openings.

Sandra McGrath When was the one in America?

Fred Williams Well, they're just starting about now. Six weeks, I think.

Sandra McGrath Six weeks? Which gallery?

Fred Williams It's the Norton Simon Museum.

Sandra McGrath Oh, really? I didn't know anything about it.

Fred Williams No, it's a travelling exhibition. First it goes to the Joslyn Gallery in Nebraska, then it goes...

Sandra McGrath Then it goes up to Canada?

Fred Williams Yeah, Ottawa. The National Gallery in Ottawa, and... it goes to the University of Texas.

Sandra McGrath Is this, which, what exhibition is this?

Fred Williams Well, this is from the Museum of Modern Art.

Sandra McGrath Museum of Modern Art, yeah.

Fred Williams They've actually made it a travelling exhibition.

Sandra McGrath They've turned it into a travelling exhibition, I see.

Fred Williams So I doubt, you know... ...I doubt if it's of sort of interest to... ...a few Australians.

Sandra McGrath Have you been painting these in any particular locale you've done here?

Fred Williams Anywhere at all.

Sandra McGrath Where?

Fred Williams Well, Werribee Gorge is the main one. Werribee, W-E-R-R-I-B-E-E. Werribee Gorge, which is close to Melbourne, 25 miles out, maybe 30. An hour's drive from Melbourne. Any direction, you know, just like that.

Sandra McGrath How do you, how do you, do you get up in the morning, get in the car, and just point north or south or east or west, or do you have to get painting spots you don't know?

Fred Williams No, I pick almost anything. I don't drive, but I get someone to drive me, and I...

Sandra McGrath Don't you drive yourself?

Fred Williams No, I don't drive, no.

Sandra McGrath Who drives you then?

Fred Williams There's a young, young painter called... ...Fraser Fair.

Sandra McGrath Do you know his work?

Fred Williams No, you wouldn't. He's too young. He's only about a mile away from us, which is handy.

Sandra McGrath Mhm. And he drives you into the...

Fred Williams He drives one day a week, hail, rain, or shine.

Sandra McGrath Mhm.

Fred Williams And... ...there it is. Dab, dab, dab away.

Sandra McGrath You mean, do you go, how do you, what sort of process of selection do you go into before you make that day comes up? Do you tell him, where should we go today?

Fred Williams Oh, well, more or less. That's, it's not a hassle. I mean, you can go in all, sweep through three or four directions.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Fred Williams And the locale is not all that important.

Sandra McGrath How can you, how do you say that?

Rudy Komon Would you care for a glass of wine?

Fred Williams Look, I'll die if you don't give me a glass of wine. I'm going to die anyway.

Sandra McGrath You'll look like a rag, like all of us.

Fred Williams Who would breakfast with Taz, this morning? Why is everybody so hot?

Sandra McGrath Really?

Rudy Komon It's not very cold, but still...

Fred Williams What do you mean, not very cold?

Rudy Komon It's not that cold.

Fred Williams What sort of a gallery is this?

Sandra McGrath Have you seen John since you've been down? John Olsen?

Fred Williams No, I haven't, no. I really just took a drive to everybody's show. They're opening this afternoon, aren't they?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Fred Williams John, he's probably coming this afternoon.

Sandra McGrath He's coming, is he?

Fred Williams I think so, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Now, where were we? When you said locale isn't very important, that sort of surprised me a bit, because why do you say that, Fred? Because you're abstracting to such a degree from the locale anyway?

Fred Williams Oh, well, the best way of putting it is, you know, I just accept it as a challenge in any spot, you know. Really, you know, in theory, the sort of painter I am, I could paint just as well in my back garden.

Sandra McGrath Which you don't.

Fred Williams Which I don't, fair enough.

Sandra McGrath So why?

Fred Williams Well, it's, oh, I, that's very, you know, I, but I do paint my garden, but... ...if you get your train drive one day a week, you might as well go as far as your garden, you know. That doesn't sound terribly good copy so far, does it?

Sandra McGrath No, it doesn't, actually.

Fred Williams No.

Sandra McGrath No, I'm sure we'll find something. Wine, I'm sure, will help. No, that's interesting though, if you say that, in theory, you could paint your garden. I mean, you could be a Bonnard, thanks, Rudy, you could be a sort of Bonnard, painter of gardens, but that isn't really what you're into, is it?

Fred Williams A garden's a nice place, you know. Paint gardens.

Sandra McGrath In your garden?

Fred Williams Oh, no.

Sandra McGrath You see, actually, the, I saw a large area where the Monet water lily garden has been restored.

Fred Williams It is, yeah.

Sandra McGrath It's being opened to the public in two years from doing it in America, and decided to clean it all up in Giverny.

Fred Williams It's gone into a very bad state of repair, hasn't it?

Sandra McGrath Mhm. And now they're weeding out the waters, lilies...

Fred Williams Is there a train track that runs through it, eh?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, there is. I don't think it's in use, that train track, anymore.

Fred Williams Mhm.

Sandra McGrath It's always disturbed me, actually, the idea that that train track went through that garden. I thought that was very queer, because it obviously didn't worry him.

Fred Williams Mhm. Yes, yes. I always thought it was slightly, but still, I don't suppose any of the trains go through it.

Sandra McGrath Mhm.

Fred Williams Which label are we drinking from?

Rudy Komon That's one of mine.

Fred Williams Oh, poor Maria. Is it Maria?

Rudy Komon Oh, God, we gave her a bad time.

Sandra McGrath Did you? Why that?

Fred Williams Oh, God, I was in terrible shape, man. Terrible, in a dreadful, dreadful way. I hope she's being kindly for that, though.

Sandra McGrath She seemed quite nice this morning. I don't know what you did, but it was a great success.

Fred Williams Oh, was it? Oh, wasn't that sweet? I was a bit outraged, I was a terrible drunkard.

Sandra McGrath She told me, she immediately sent me out coffee, because she said, 'Oh, so few people in Melbourne know that Fred Williams was drunk, and we really had no one come out.' 'Never seen him in such a state, and you're great, brilliant.'

Fred Williams Oh, is that so? I thought I would have been murdered.

Sandra McGrath No, no, you were brilliant.

Fred Williams I made a couple of outrages one night.

Sandra McGrath Such as?

Fred Williams I baited my colleagues, which is a bit unlikely. It's not, you know, I think they baited me, in fact.

Sandra McGrath Did they?

Fred Williams No, Jim Mollison was here, you know.

Sandra McGrath Oh, was he?

Fred Williams Yeah, and he sort of, you know, can be a little devil, really.

Sandra McGrath Oh, yes. He knows how to get under the skin.

Fred Williams Sure.

Sandra McGrath What was he up to?

Fred Williams Frankly, I don't remember.

Sandra McGrath You don't remember?

Fred Williams I'm an incurable diarist, and I was trying to write it down the next morning, and I couldn't bloody well remember.

Sandra McGrath Your diaries are famous, actually. In fact, you're writing in your diaries to everything that goes on.

Fred Williams They're not terribly good, you know. They're mainly gossip, it's not, they're very banal in a way. I...

Sandra McGrath Do you actually write every day?

Fred Williams Yeah, I do, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Every single day, in and out?

Fred Williams Yeah.

Sandra McGrath That's good, actually.

Fred Williams Not all gossip, now.

Sandra McGrath It's going to make...

Fred Williams If anyone gets in my way and I can't say anything about them, I just write them in my diary and I fix them up.

Sandra McGrath It's going to make good copy for a book.

Fred Williams Yeah, well, Patrick's writing a book, and his nose is out of joint because I won't let him look at them, for obvious reasons. It's because Patrick gets a guernsey more often than he should, you know.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Fred Williams Because, you know, he's had a very intrepid career in London.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Fred Williams Oh, man, couldn't let him read that, yeah. He would stop writing the book, you know.

Sandra McGrath Why did you write that then?

Fred Williams I'm not, I'm not, you know, I must say Patrick's, he gets himself in a lot of trouble.

Sandra McGrath In what way?

Fred Williams Oh, you know, he's just being, just being Patrick, you know, forthright views and so on. Patrick's very notorious for changing his mind.

Sandra McGrath Yes, that's true.

Fred Williams Very notorious.

Sandra McGrath Yes, that's true. His passions for the international school, I think, were...

Fred Williams A very sophisticated man in many ways, and he sent a telegram yesterday, and he said he hoped that the praise for the exhibition... He's saying, 'Best wishes for tonight, regret we can't attend, restrained by destiny at my desk. May praise and wine flow in equal measure.'

Sandra McGrath That's lovely. That's charming, isn't it?

Fred Williams Yes, yes, he's very good.

Sandra McGrath That's lovely. He is an elegant human being, there's no doubt about that.

Fred Williams Yes, yeah, yeah. I must say, I am, I'm, well, as you'd probably know, he's gone to a great deal of pains to dig up the story. And of course, you know, with me, I change the story, you know, every, whatever, if I'm, what I'm really trying to say, I will change. I will virtually say whatever suits me at the time, and it makes his job damn near impossible. Really. And of course, I think it's beginning to show now, because I think he's got to a certain stage of the book, and he can't go on. But he's really stuck, I would think. He's been at the same level for about a year.

Sandra McGrath Oh, well, I mean, that, oh, it'll come good.

Fred Williams Oh, sure it will.

Sandra McGrath It's just, you know, how...

Fred Williams Rupert's going to publish your book of Whiteleys, and Sid's going to go up and paint a series, and they're going to make a book out of those. Is that the story?

Sandra McGrath Going to paint a series where?

Fred Williams In the Northern Territory, you know. And they're going to make that into a book, and they're going to do it as a trilogy.

Sandra McGrath It's going to be a trilogy. Aren't they going to publish your book too?

Fred Williams Yeah. Well, they're going to publish Patrick's book, not me, and didn't you know this?

Sandra McGrath No. What do you mean, a trilogy?

Fred Williams Oh, well, not a trilogy, but the three to be done together, printed together.

Sandra McGrath Printed together? Didn't you know this? Can't be right. Because mine's already in print, going to print.

Fred Williams What, then? It's just out in the next month or so?

Sandra McGrath Mhm.

Fred Williams Oh, well, that was the date that Patrick couldn't keep. Yeah. Oh, well, that's what it was all about, then.

Sandra McGrath I mean, because ours...

Fred Williams Are Bay Books doing it?

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Fred Williams Yeah. Oh.

Sandra McGrath Well, ours is def- I mean, our manuscript is in, and the photographs are all there and everything. It's already should be in the presses.

Fred Williams Well, that's, that's the date that Patrick couldn't keep.

Sandra McGrath Well, he didn't make the deadline by a long shot, because the deadline was actually February.

Fred Williams That's right. It's been in manuscript... I thought his deadline was May, I think, and he couldn't, he couldn't do it. I don't think it was February.

Sandra McGrath See, to get him out...

Fred Williams I only know this story from Rudy, you know, that's what Rudy told me.

Sandra McGrath It doesn't sound right, no. No, because they don't usually publish that sort of thing, you know. It doesn't sound like it, but I'll find out. But I don't believe it, because they will tell me.

Fred Williams So your book will be...

Sandra McGrath Mine's going to print now.

Fred Williams Yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And it's supposed to be out in August, or September at the latest.

Fred Williams Well, Patrick will never make that.

Sandra McGrath No, Patrick won't make that. Well, why should he rush?

Fred Williams No, he shouldn't rush.

Sandra McGrath He shouldn't rush.

Fred Williams No, no, that's right.

Sandra McGrath It's stupid to rush a book like that.

Fred Williams Well, Patrick's a perfectionist, you know, and he really wants to get it right.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Fred Williams And he's doing a lot of research, and he's going into things very deeply.

Sandra McGrath Yeah, that's good.

Fred Williams And he doesn't want to be pushed into anything.

Sandra McGrath No, of course not.

Fred Williams And I think Bay Books have been pushing him a bit.

Sandra McGrath Well, they push everybody.

Fred Williams Yeah, they do.

Sandra McGrath They certainly pushed me.

Fred Williams Did they?

Sandra McGrath Oh, terribly.

Fred Williams Yeah, well, Patrick doesn't like being pushed.

Sandra McGrath No.

Fred Williams And I think he's dug his heels in a bit.

Sandra McGrath Good for him.

Fred Williams Yeah.

Sandra McGrath He should do it his own way.

Fred Williams That's right, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Because in the end, it's his reputation on the line, and yours.

Fred Williams That's right. And it's a big monograph, you know, it's not just a little catalogue.

Sandra McGrath No, exactly.

Fred Williams So it's important to get it right.

Sandra McGrath Of course it is.

Fred Williams Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Well, Patrick will do a wonderful job, I'm sure.

Fred Williams Oh, yes, he will.

Sandra McGrath He's a very good writer.

Fred Williams He is, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And he understands your work. How... So your book will be published separately on its own?

Fred Williams Mm. They'd all have to be published separately in their own. And you couldn't put together three books like that.

Sandra McGrath Oh, well, I didn't mean, you know, I just...

Fred Williams You meant...

Sandra McGrath You meant Bay Books are going to bring them out. They're going to print three art books this year.

Fred Williams That's right, something like that. Yeah, that's that's right, yeah. Well, I've probably got it wrong, yeah.

Sandra McGrath You don't mean that they're putting them together in three volumes?

Fred Williams No, no, no. I thought, you know, Rupert said something about he he'd like to launch the book in London and Paris or something. Oh no, London and New York or something like that. I I I never listened. And I've probably I've probably got it wrong.

Sandra McGrath I think you've got it a bit out of hand.

Fred Williams But I know that Patrick couldn't make a deadline, and I maybe...

Sandra McGrath I'd be a bit I'd be a bit mad about that if I were you.

Fred Williams Why? Oh, well, oh, well, I'd rather him do it properly than... Well, I mean, I'd rather him sort of, I know, I don't want to pick a book up. Now, I mean, how many of them do you pick pick up and they're absolute embarrassments? Oh, God, no.

Sandra McGrath Mm, that's true.

Fred Williams Yeah. Well, I think he's also worried about, you know, we're you know, worrying about the cut-off date.

Sandra McGrath Yes, that's always a thing.

Fred Williams Well, he's made it he's made it this exhibition.

Sandra McGrath Has he?

Fred Williams I think so, yeah. So So it's 70 What is it, '78, isn't it?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. Yeah. That's always a problem with these things, is what is the cut-off point.

Fred Williams Well, I suppose you should do do the decent, you know, thing, and shoot yourself or something. Not the decent thing, the proper thing.

Sandra McGrath Well, let's have a quick talk about landscape. You've had talk about landscape till you're sick to death of it, haven't you?

Fred Williams Yeah, I I I always like to think of myself as a painter rather than landscape painter. Oh, gosh, this is not going well, well at all. How can I... What can I say? Um...

Sandra McGrath I mean, the idea that you're sort of Australia's reigning landscape artist, and if somehow Does that image... Why do you think you've got that particular image, I mean, that particular reputation? Aside from the work being extremely good, of course.

Fred Williams Yeah.

Sandra McGrath What was I... What is it in the landscape that particularly...

Fred Williams Ah, well, obviously I I uh I I obviously find... You know, it's I obviously find a trigger, you know, for what it is I want to do. No, but I I suppose the thing that would be different, I mean, is the fact that I can work freely from it. You know, it doesn't offer it doesn't sort of I don't feel alienated from it. Does that Does that sound...?

Sandra McGrath Mhm.

Fred Williams Actually, there was a there was a little book here, someone said, I don't I don't know whether I deserved it or not, but do you know Murray Mason, who's writing in The West Australian?

Sandra McGrath Mhm. Well, I know his name. I know his name, yeah, but well, what does he say?

Fred Williams He said because I paint the landscape... I think it was very nice, I don't know where the hell it is.

Sandra McGrath What did he What did he say? Because you paint the landscape, what?

Fred Williams Because I've non-alienated it, you know, I've become it, you know. It's probably the truth anyway.

Sandra McGrath I was looking at this today.

Fred Williams Oh, tell me what this is.

Sandra McGrath Yeah, really.

Fred Williams Would you pick up the pilot's rating a paper?

Sandra McGrath I saw that. I got that invitation the other day. What is what what is that all about?

Fred Williams I have that. I get that.

Sandra McGrath I don't understand it, where they all suddenly came from.

Fred Williams Uh-huh.

Sandra McGrath Mm.

Fred Williams Well, this stuff strikes me as suspicious. It's not...

Sandra McGrath Is this the guy that you're talking about?

Fred Williams Yeah. This is supposed to be the sketches for the Blue Poles.

Sandra McGrath How it tours Australia.

Fred Williams It's opening in Sydney.

Sandra McGrath Mm. I don't know about this anymore, Patrick.

Fred Williams Yeah, I think you'd better be careful.

Sandra McGrath Mm. Is this Murray Mason, the guy...?

Fred Williams Yeah, that's that's Yeah, that's us. What What does he say? Ah... something about the landscape, was it? That's partly it.

Sandra McGrath It is not enough to say that the person has an itch.

Fred Williams No, it must be somewhere else. Ah, the drunkest person. How do they how have they had that?

Sandra McGrath I think you're getting confused.

Fred Williams See, it just goes to prove, I I...

Sandra McGrath He said, you know, it is funny, because you said, oh, he said, because I've painted the landscape, I've become the landscape.

Fred Williams That's right, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And that's not what he said at all. That's just the opposite, isn't it?

Fred Williams It's the opposite. It's just the opposite, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Well, that might be a point.

Fred Williams Actually, I tell you who wrote an interesting review of the exhibition, and... which was a surprise, actually, in Adelaide, was Noel Sheridan.

Sandra McGrath Did he? Good on him.

Fred Williams Yeah, and, I mean, even Patrick raised his eyebrows and said, "Well, you know, that's something that's been said about your pictures that's never been said before." But don't ask me what the hell it was.

Sandra McGrath Tell me, do you see any shift over the years of, um, how you've interpreted it?

Fred Williams What, in mine? Oh, well, yes, I change, I, you know, about four or five years ago, I changed my palette. And it's been a, yeah, it's been a a very steady grind to sort of... And that and and it's been I found it rather hard work doing it. And and the only the only thing that really worried me was the fact that I had to abandon my etching. You know, that I just couldn't to go out working one day... The reason I I took up going regularly into the out-landscape was because I changed my palette. And I found that...

Sandra McGrath What do you mean when you say you changed your palette?

Fred Williams Well, it was a moderating influence, you know, when you changed...

Sandra McGrath When you say when you say, "I changed the palette," now what does that what would that mean to the reader, a reader?

Fred Williams I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Uh, what a pal...

Sandra McGrath I mean, are you are you telling a palette, you're telling me you changed the I mean, to change colours wouldn't seem difficult for someone. Um, why was it difficult if that's what you just mean, is changing the colour? Palette, we normally talk talk about is palette being the colour. Is that what you really mean?

Fred Williams Yes. That's probably only a point that makes sense, anyway.

Sandra McGrath What are you sort of trying to say?

Fred Williams Mhm?

Sandra McGrath What do you What What do you mean when you say "palette" in this case?

Fred Williams Well, it's it's it's that's a bit vague now, and I think we'd better just leave it and go, I think.

Sandra McGrath What do you see was the big change in another way, Fred, you think?

Fred Williams Well, I shouldn't be so stupid, Sandra, my mind just goes a blank, you know.

Sandra McGrath Well, there's no need for you to have to talk about it if you don't...

Fred Williams No, there's no need for it.

Sandra McGrath Uh, just if you had a few thoughts and thought you'd care to express them.

Fred Williams Well, you know, I'm always a little bit reluctant to talk about it because, you know, like I said before, I, you know, I do change the story so often, really, and, um...

Sandra McGrath Do you think you change the story, if you had to sort of analyze why you change the story, do you change the story because no story really fits it all?

Fred Williams Well, that's, that'd have to be, to keep my integrity, I suppose it would have to be something like that, wouldn't it?

Sandra McGrath It's not, in other words, you're not being deliberately naughty.

Fred Williams I don't know.

Sandra McGrath Or are you? Or are you?

Fred Williams Well, I never know quite what to think. I know what I was going to think, um...

Sandra McGrath Do you believe the Australian landscape is is this sort of alien monster which keeps being if being written up to be?

Fred Williams Oh, no.

Sandra McGrath You don't see it as a stream of...

Fred Williams No, I think I think the my virtue would be, or my generation's virtue, and I think this includes a lot of the people who work from the landscape, is that uh we we work free we we walk around it very freely. And it doesn't present the the problem that it did to the earlier painters. You know, they're they're battling the elements, but we don't, we accept it. That's probably... We were probably the first. I mean, for instance, I mean, Vassilieff and Boyd and Nolan and Tucker found the environment very, very hostile. But you could you could never say the same about say Nolan and... Well, you could, yeah. What, John Olsen, could you? What sort of plane do we get on to to get out of Sydney before Sandra publishes her article?

Sandra McGrath That was a that's a one you read, a very good one. I'm asking you... how about the

Fred Williams Can I have a glass of wine? What are you drinking, a bit of...

Sandra McGrath Sure. Here, here is a glass. Here, I was using it.

Fred Williams You're not using it.

Sandra McGrath No, I've got I've got another one here. Oh, thank you. That's good. Um... Listen, we've got to get a picture of Fred, and I have Where did the... Um...

Fred Williams Oh, I've got a good camera.

Sandra McGrath Can't John Rance send somebody out or something?

Fred Williams When do you want it? Fairly quickly, I suppose.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I want Monday, I'm I'm writing it in Monday, so it's got to appear on Tuesday. And I'm in a panic about the camera situation.

Fred Williams Can't anybody come out today?

Sandra McGrath No, you see, you don't Saturday Australians don't work.

Fred Williams Except me.

Sandra McGrath But isn't there anybody else who can come? Can't come. Um...

Fred Williams Well, I suppose they don't work Sunday either, do they?

Sandra McGrath No, I don't think so.

Fred Williams Would Would Monks do it in Melbourne?

Sandra McGrath Well, we won't be home till 6:00 or 7:00 tomorrow night or something like that, Sandra.

Fred Williams Well, they'd be they'd be around tomorrow, if they're not detected.

Sandra McGrath I don't know if we'd be able to do it tomorrow, we'd have to wait, we could do it early...

Fred Williams Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Um...

Fred Williams Well, you could he could do it just so he could do it just out of strain, then.

Sandra McGrath Must be done, hasn't he?

Fred Williams Has he? Oh, no. Would he Do you want it done here at the gallery, or...?

Sandra McGrath Yes, I want it done in the gallery with the pictures.

Fred Williams Yeah, it just matches, you know, with the pictures. Well, why don't we do that? The picture is big. Huh?

Sandra McGrath Make you small, the picture's big. [laughter] I'm sorry.

Fred Williams It's all right, Sandra. I took a glass of wine.

Sandra McGrath I think I will. Um...

Fred Williams I wouldn't bring all your collectors down. I think I'll have to keep out... ...hide around the corner.

Sandra McGrath Oh, dear. Well, that is a problem anyway. Uh, I'll try to get on to Robert about it. Um... and get him here tomorrow anyway.

Fred Williams I'll get him tomorrow morning at the end of the night, because I'll be sober.

Sandra McGrath Tomorrow night? Anyway, back to this thing about Nolan and Boyd and hostile bit and...

Fred Williams Oh, yes. I don't know if that's all true. Oh, God, Sandra, I really...

Sandra McGrath You think that this generation of artists really have a much more relaxed attitude toward...

Fred Williams Yeah, I think they're they're inheritors, really. And one of the reasons they've done so much with it probably is is that.

Sandra McGrath I noticed that there is a sort of uh very strong geological form uh sort of influence in these that I hadn't noticed before.

Fred Williams You're talking about the three? Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're the last that's the last one, I actually like that one. Um... Yeah, well, I was working freely there, I think that's um...

Sandra McGrath I don't know. The only thing that would worry me about painting outdoors would be the bloody flies and trees and stuff.

Fred Williams Oh, well, of course. I suppose the thing is, I... I...

Sandra McGrath You know what I'd have to do if I were painting outdoors? I'd have to have a portable screen sort of cube that I could sort of sit, stand in.

Fred Williams Yeah, well, ideally, that's that's what everyone does out in the Sussex end, that is.

Sandra McGrath Now, is that really...

Fred Williams a concrete box.

Sandra McGrath To me, that's the worst part of it, the whole Australian landscape, are those bloody...

Fred Williams Oh, I'm fairly I'm fairly skilled at doing it, uh. It's just a straight routine with me. I had no nonsense, and I sort of set out at a certain time and arrive in the area, absorb myself in the area, and I and I work, you know, very hard, actually, for six, six, sometimes seven hours. And I come back absolutely exhausted, and I put the work away, you know. I just, soon as I can, I shove them all in the rack.

Sandra McGrath and it takes much too, it takes much too long to transcribe a tape to make it really useful, you know, a piece of gear. So I just, they all get taped over, you know, after I've, after I've done the interview, or after I've written it up. Also, I sort of, uh, uh, I have a sort of a security blanket, I think, too, in case I have this terrible blank that I can't remember anything, or that my notes are hopeless, or I'm drunk, or something. Anyway, after you put the work away, you come back to it a few days later.

Fred Williams Oh, a few months later. Six months later. I, uh, yeah, I, well, how can I put that? I d- I do a great deal of work, you know, I mean I do by the end of the year, I'd, I'd finish up with, um, you see, something like 150 pictures of work that I've done on the spot. And then, when I, then, then I start working from them, you know. But then, while one year's work is drying off and sitting there, I'm working on the previous one. Yeah. So, the, the, the smallest amount of time I could operate would be three or four years. I mean, this Werribee Gorge series has taken almost four years. I was well into the Werribee Gorge series when I had my last show in Adelaide, in August. And that, that was three years from that time, so it's taken four years. I mean, I'm not, I'm not greatly addicted to the idea of, uh, and I don't mean this as criticism of anyone else, but of, uh, of, uh, spontaneity. It's, it's something that is an element that doesn't really interest me, and that does, I'm not casting aspersions on anyone else, you know, who might sort of see great virtues, I mean.

Sandra McGrath Oh no one would think you were.

Fred Williams I would like, you know, I would like to think, you know, I want, don't want people to...

Sandra McGrath Whatever way you worry about what your views are doesn't override someone else's, so what?

Fred Williams Well, qu- well, you know, well spontaneity's sort of got, uh, is enjoying a current vogue in Australia, you know. I've never thought of myself as a... sponta- Oh, oh no, that's not, that's not... Shit. That must be absolute goddamned awful stuff on that one.

Sandra McGrath It will work out all right.

Fred Williams Why are you against it?

Sandra McGrath You're allowed, you're allowed to talk about the exhibition, the paintings and that, so...

Fred Williams Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, that's the whole idea.

Sandra McGrath Of course. Um, what do you mean by you're not, spontaneity? You mean you like the idea of things settling and

Fred Williams Yeah, reforming.

Sandra McGrath reforming, and

Fred Williams I don't want to paint the picture in 20 minutes flat, you know, and, and, and, and... All right.

Sandra McGrath Would you say an average picture of yours then takes a year to settle?

Fred Williams It would, the average would be a year, because, you know, the paint, it's all painted on canvas, you see, and

Sandra McGrath Yeah, that takes a long time to dry, doesn't it?

Fred Williams Takes a long time to dry, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Mm. Tell me, besides painting, what other hobbies do you do?

Fred Williams Nothing.

Sandra McGrath Reading?

Fred Williams I read, I read, I read a lot, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Surely.

Fred Williams I'm a fairly, a prodigious reader of art books, I suppose. I, uh, I sometimes buy them all and read them.

Sandra McGrath What do you think of all the art books you read?

Fred Williams Oh, well I'm, I'm...

Sandra McGrath Do you really look at them?

Fred Williams fairly catholic choice, you know. I take it for what it's worth, I...

Sandra McGrath What, what would you consider, um, a painter that, um, you like, that, I mean, you know, if you were looking through the art books, which ones most appeal? Which, what are you drawn to? Which, yeah. No, anybody.

Fred Williams Oh, well, it's fairly catholic, anybody, anybody. I mean, I, I've seen, I know as much about American painters as I do about Australian ones, because I, I speak with a little bit of, that's not, you know, I mean...

Sandra McGrath Did you see that, did you see that Museum of Modern Art book called The Natural Paradise? Now that, that was to me a lovely exhibition, wasn't it?

Fred Williams Yeah. I didn't see the exhibition, but I know the catalogue.

Sandra McGrath You didn't? Yeah.

Fred Williams I didn't see the exhibition.

Sandra McGrath No, I didn't either.

Fred Williams Well, I, that was very interesting. This is where they had that man, uh, Tack, is it?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, brought him and resurrected him.

Fred Williams Yes, they've got a lot of his pictures in The Phillips. Yeah, I thought that was very interesting. Uh, oh, the simile is correct.

Sandra McGrath I thought there were sort of parallels to be drawn to be made in Australian landscape painting, but I didn't quite know how to make them at the time. I didn't give it that much thought, but as I was reading...

Fred Williams Oh, it's, it's a continuing story, isn't it? I mean, hasn't... I mean, I mean, what's happened in America, uh, uh, well certainly with a little bit of luck, and it would need luck to happen here, it's true. The chances are it won't, but, uh... Well, the WPA program must have given them a tremendous impetus. Pollock was the, was the chief exponent of it.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Fred Williams Uh, and then, of course, you know, the war bringing Europeans there was the, is the, was the thing that sparked them. One, one thing or the other wasn't enough. I mean, had, had the American artists not had the WPA program, you know, they certainly wouldn't have been able to take advantage of what the Kandinskys were saying and, uh, all the Mondrians, all the Hofmanns, yeah. I mean, they just wouldn't have been able to accept it. Because, well Pollock was, was a professional painter what, for, for 20 years before he flared. I mean, professional in the sense that he was supported by a program.

Sandra McGrath WPA.

Fred Williams Yeah. So, he was actually, you know, he was an inheritor in the sense that, that, that he was actually quite ready, you know, to, to pick up the challenge when it was put down. And it certainly was put down then. I mean, they must have, they, they must have hit pretty hard. And the chances of that happening in Australia, of course, is a little bit remote, isn't it? I mean, without those elements. No, I don't, I don't, I don't mean, not, I don't mean similar elements, but

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Fred Williams we again have, are going to have to have a little bit of luck somewhere along the line, aren't we? And I can't see where it's coming at the moment. Oh well, darling, you shouldn't say that.

Sandra McGrath Herman Kahn said that, uh, he thought this was a very lucky country. Did you see that? That he really was, that we were...

Fred Williams Well, lucky for who?

Sandra McGrath For its inhabitants.

Fred Williams Oh, in terms of minerals, yes, but it's not going to do much for us culturally, is it?

Sandra McGrath Do you feel that there's a sort of cultural drag here for you? As far as you as a painter?

Fred Williams I think we're culturally lazy, yeah.

Sandra McGrath But as you as a painter, do you feel sort of, uh, do you feel deprived because you can't go to the Louvre and you can't...

Fred Williams Oh I can, though. I, I went to see the late Cézannes. I went to see the late Cézannes in New York. I only went for three days, but I saw them.

Sandra McGrath What, and then came back here?

Fred Williams Mhm.

Sandra McGrath You just went to New York for three days? That's the intelligent thing to do.

Fred Williams Well, they let me in early in the morning with other people, didn't they? I've got an entrée there and they they just let me go in early in the morning and look at the pictures, and... It's certainly, it's certainly the finest exhibition I've ever seen.

Sandra McGrath Everyone has said that.

Fred Williams Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Everyone.

Fred Williams Yeah.

Sandra McGrath And it's gone to Paris now.

Fred Williams Well, part of it's gone to Paris.

Sandra McGrath Not all of it?

Fred Williams Not, no, far from it, far from it all, because a lot of people refuse to... You realize what the museum did, didn't you? They, they, to, to actually get the pictures, they had to give them a picture of equivalent value back to the people they got the pictures from. So in other words, if they gave two Cézannes, they got two Van Goghs back in return. And some of the houses were unsecured, and it was a great risk.

Sandra McGrath Good Lord, I didn't know that.

Fred Williams Oh it's a, it's a beauty. Actually they're all sort of sucking their fingers over it, actually, you know, hoping that the whole, they'll get out of it without something going wrong.

Sandra McGrath You didn't see it, huh?

Rudy Komon No, I didn't. I just...

Fred Williams Well, it, it, it really was, they literally... Well, they had, they had the Bibémus Quarry, which, you know,

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Fred Williams naturally would interest me. And it was like, they're all in one room. They had the, no, the Victoire pictures all on one wall, so you can actually see his false starts and, uh...

Rudy Komon Sorry I didn't see that, you know.

Fred Williams Think of others, Rudy, think of others.

Rudy Komon Yes, I'm sorry.

Sandra McGrath Did you see the show, too, Rudy? The late Cézanne show?

Rudy Komon No. No, no.

Fred Williams He's barbarian.

Rudy Komon You see, I can't, I can't... Only artists can afford to

Fred Williams Rudy, put it this way:

Rudy Komon travel to Europe on a show and come back, you know.

Fred Williams Rudy, put it this way, I couldn't afford not to see it.

Rudy Komon Yes, yes.

Sandra McGrath Did you really only go for three days, Fred?

Fred Williams Yes.

Sandra McGrath You were away from Australia for 10 days, so...

Fred Williams Well I'm sorry, I went, we went, we came back via Paris so I could see the Courbet exhibition.

Sandra McGrath Oh, yes.

Fred Williams And I was three days in Paris as well.

Rudy Komon Fred, in 10 minutes we have to go, so you...

Fred Williams Right, okay.

Rudy Komon Yes, I, uh, I think I don't want to...

Sandra McGrath What is the time, by the way?

Rudy Komon It's half,

Fred Williams Twenty-

Rudy Komon 25. We have to be at 12:30 somewhere else, so...

Sandra McGrath Okay, sure thing.

Fred Williams There's Sunday, it doesn't give me gossip, does it? No.

Rudy Komon I am sure that she has already the gossip, knowing you, so...

Sandra McGrath He's been very ungossipy. He keeps saying...

Rudy Komon I don't believe it.

Fred Williams Mind you, I'm holding myself back.

Sandra McGrath He keeps saying, "No, no, no, don't say that!"

Fred Williams Don't say that, don't say that.

Sandra McGrath "Don't say that, don't say that!"

Rudy Komon I'll let you some air in, huh?

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's true, too. Let's see, um... I had looked at something I wanted to see at the gallery this morning, but I had all this done this morning.

Fred Williams You see, I was looking at that. You know, really, you know, that's not bad, that that he is buying. Look at that. That was 1975. I'm really impressed with that, uh. I hadn't seen that before.

Sandra McGrath What do you mean, the acquisition's 1975?

Fred Williams Yeah. That's, that's not, that's not a bad... an Australian item, too, you know.

Sandra McGrath I haven't seen this either. No, it's very good. Did they get anything of yours this year?

Fred Williams New South Wales has never bought anything of mine, have they? I'm sorry, 20 years ago they did. 20 years, yeah. How long since New South Wales bought?

Sandra McGrath That is absurd.

Fred Williams Well, you had to give them one, ah, when they opened the new wing. They didn't buy anything. That the main picture, that main picture on the cover of the catalogue was knocked back by them.

Sandra McGrath That they knocked back?

Fred Williams Not that I might complain, but I mean...

Rudy Komon Ah, no. That was, that was so cheap.

Fred Williams Jesus.

Sandra McGrath Did they ever, did they ever get that Nolan, by the way, Rudy, that I was screaming and hollering about?

Rudy Komon Uh, you'll see. We send it down,

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Rudy Komon so we will see what happened.

Sandra McGrath I see.

Rudy Komon And you see, the, the trouble is that it takes such a long time.

Fred Williams Well, the thing is Cézanne will always attract painters because he's a perfect combination of a painter and an artist. And he's he's open to any sort of interpretation of the knife system.

Sandra McGrath Why do you make the distinction between the painter and the artist?

Fred Williams Well, I Well, you know, I think there is a difference, you know? I think I mean, you can you can be a very good painter, but not much of an artist. And you can be a very good artist, and not much of a painter. Now, this is something you don't write. But Sidney Nolan would be a very good example of that. You know, he's he's all artist, and uh but no one would dream of ever calling him a good painter. Uh, but uh but you don't say that much, yeah? But that's what I mean. Do you know what I mean?

Sandra McGrath It's an inter- I've actually never thought about this. Uh...

Fred Williams Well, Arthur Boyd would be uh he's something of a painter and something of an artist, and he's he's he's the perfect balance, or or not a perfect balance, but he's a good balance. Um, uh, like, for instance, I mean, it's perfectly obvious that Cézanne was influenced by Courbet, I mean, you know, because the paintings are almost identical in that early palette knife period. Uh, but Courbet was a great painter, but not necessarily a great artist, whereas Cézanne was.

Sandra McGrath He was lucky, too. He was in the right place at the right time.

Fred Williams Who, Cézanne? Well, he was just perverse enough to do his thing, yeah.

Sandra McGrath And rich enough.

Fred Williams Well, he was he was he could have done anything else. He could have just lived life as a country squire if he wanted to, but he was more intense about his work as he finished than he certainly was at the beginning. Oh, that's not true, no, that's not true. He was just as... It was a marvellous exhibition.

Lyn Williams But what the thing everybody says is that that if Cézanne had died ten years earlier...

Fred Williams Well, that's that's that's, oh, that's that's the crunch. Without the watercolours, it's obvious, it becomes perfectly obvious that when he's painting er not so much the quarry, the Bibémus quarry, but the Mont Sainte-Victoire, I mean, as you see the watercolours coming, as as the patches, you know, as the canvas becomes more apparent and the placing of one colour against another, the watercolours are are rapidly influencing the the painting. And well and if he hadn't made the watercolours, he certainly would never have given up that breathing space, thank God.

Sandra McGrath Do you see in anything in your present work that's been, they're at all influenced by that?

Fred Williams Well, yeah. Well, yeah. Well, yeah, I would well, sort of, yeah, I'd I'd hope it would be. Realising your little sensation?

Sandra McGrath What?

Fred Williams Realising your little sensation, as they say.

Sandra McGrath What does that mean?

Fred Williams Oh, that's what he said.

Sandra McGrath Little sensation.

Fred Williams Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Did you enjoy the show?

Lyn Williams Tremendous. It was really It's worth doing things like that, you know, after not sleeping and waking up at all hours.

Sandra McGrath So that must have been

Lyn Williams Tremendous excitement when you're one of the most obvious.

Fred Williams It's a great It took them 11 years to put it together.

Lyn Williams It's going to Paris, but it's not going to be quite the same, because the one from Russia, which they're very critical of the state it's in, that very beautiful one, that isn't going.

Fred Williams Some of the Russian pictures are not going.

Lyn Williams The catalogue is something you must get hold of, because of the way you write, the things that interest you, you'd have to you'd have to have a catalogue.

Fred Williams You must get the catalogue.

Sandra McGrath I will be sent it eventually.

Fred Williams It's that big, but it's hardly a catalogue. It comes in a hard cover, it's a book.

Lyn Williams It's $40 in the hardcover.

Sandra McGrath I'll get sent one anyway, because I'm on that Museum of Modern Art Council.

Lyn Williams It's just that...

Sandra McGrath It just hasn't arrived.

Lyn Williams Didn't that open for the last International Council meeting in October or something like that, in New York? Did it open?

Sandra McGrath Yes, it was open then, but I wasn't there.

Lyn Williams Oh, well, I thought... Of course, one of the best things about it was being able to go in early and stand back and look right along the wall. We heard...

Fred Williams That's a French That's a fringe benefit, I must say. Look, one one day we actually stayed on when the when the people came in and within ten minutes of the doors opening, the exhibition was a blue blur.

Sandra McGrath Really?

Fred Williams You couldn't see it.

Lyn Williams Well, there was a girl we met. They queued. They were there at 9:30 in the morning. They were home visiting their family. She's an American girl, and they came into the town and queued up. They got in the queue at 9:30 in the morning. It went all round all the way round the block before 9:30 at that stage. And she said they waited when the museum opened at 11:00, and it took another three-quarters of an hour.

Sandra McGrath It's incredible the inter- It's incredible the interest people have in art in America.

Fred Williams Well, the other thing is they're all queuing up and it's it's freezing. It was snowing.

Lyn Williams Snowing when we were there. But they said it's built up and built up, I mean that, because it's closing on the 3rd of January.

Fred Williams Well, I think the museum might have been guilty of of of of doing something extremely stupid. They had it on for too short a time. Well, it's the most successful exhibition they've ever had. You know, it's Cézanne being presented to the public. But the professionals are all very sceptical about it, because there was one large section of it given over to documentation, what what other artists thought of Cézanne, and what Matisse thought of him, and they've got these photographs. And, of course, there are more people in there looking at that than they are in the pictures, which pleased us. But, on the other hand, I mean, I I mean, I didn't quite agree, because I I haven't found that quite fascinating myself. Because you're actually you're actually, oh, well, they're snobs in a way, because

Lyn Williams You know, if you just see...

Fred Williams I've known Cézanne all my life, his work. My God, there are a lot of things that I didn't know about him that I hadn't known. You know, photographs and...

Sandra McGrath Oh, I think that's good, that documentation. I don't think that takes away from art.

Fred Williams No, but what they were saying...

Sandra McGrath It's the purists who think it does.

Lyn Williams Well, that's it. You know, what worried them was that people tended to spend longer in there reading those things than they did looking at the pictures. But, as that other woman said to us, all she could do when she looked at it was look four deep, the people in front of it. And she said, you peer through...

Fred Williams Well, really, you couldn't see them.

Lyn Williams And she said, the next one, you peer through, they've got another mountain to cross. They didn't ever get that feeling.

Fred Williams They They hung the pictures, you know, as is the current fashion, a little bit low, you know, and people generally in America looked to be a little bit bigger, you know, and you just literally couldn't see them. Couldn't see them. And you'd certainly never be able to see it properly, you know, fighting to see every individual, because it was looking down those the long line of them to get the sequence, which was...

Sandra McGrath Mind you, the other thing was...

Lyn Williams I mean, in Paris, the Courbet exhibition was very much the same.

Fred Williams Oh, yeah, but it wasn't such a grand gallery, the Petit Palais.

Lyn Williams It was huge.

Fred Williams And there are stairs and staircases you can jump up on.

Sandra McGrath Yes, that's fine.