Colin Lanceley

Colin Lanceley Recording 1, 2, 3. Recording 1, 2, 3. Recording 1, 2, 3.

Sandra McGrath Interview with Colin Lanceley, August 20th—no, August 10th—Moore Park Road house, 1992, on Brett Whiteley. It's day three.

Kay Lanceley I love it.

Sandra McGrath Tell me where you all lived in London.

Colin Lanceley Well, we, when we first arrived, we had a—we rented a—

Sandra McGrath When was that first day?

Colin Lanceley In 1965, in about spring. April, May, autumn. Spring. Spring. We had a rented grim flat in Collingham Gardens to begin with. We bought a car, we went off travelling,

Sandra McGrath but we didn't feel at all settled, and, um, soon after that we... Sorry, just quickly, did you—did—did

Kay Lanceley you all just come straight from Australia? No, we went to Italy. No, we went to Italy, and stayed with Bob Hughes for a couple of weeks, and then we just got on the train and went to London.

Colin Lanceley And it was a bit later that we met up with some of the Australians—Lawrence Daws and Charles Blackman. And Charles Blackman was renting a flat in a building called Hanover Gate Mansions in NW1, quite close to Regent's Park. And we decided to go for one of these mansion flats. I saw a vast place with eight rooms. And all I had was the Rubinstein. We weren't actually earning any money. We just had the Rubinstein money and we were trying to sort of eke it out. We didn't—

Sandra McGrath You do remember I bought the Rubinstein piece, don't you?

Colin Lanceley Yes, I do, Sandra.

Sandra McGrath And do you know I gave it to the art gallery and they haven't ever put it up, do you realise?

Colin Lanceley About time. Speak to Edmund.

Sandra McGrath I have spoken to him ten times. I'd like you to, please, Col.

Colin Lanceley Go ahead.

Sandra McGrath I remember the Rubinstein very well because I remember you doing it, and somewhere near Rudy Komon's and me seeing you working on it, and I said, 'If you finish that, I'll buy it.'

Colin Lanceley Yes. And that was, I suppose, when we met Brett, at that time. What, in the spring of 1965? Yes, it would have been. And I, I... Had you heard of him? Oh, yes. What did you hear? Oh, well, I, I didn't know Brett, but I remember when I was an art student, and he won that Italian Travelling Scholarship, which I think, wasn't it put up by one of the shipping companies? Flotta Lauro, yeah, something. And and I thought they were fantastic pictures. They were they were the early ones of those marvellous quintessential landscapes, you know, the the—not quite abstract, but sort of sumptuous, sort of biomorphic shapes, and very, and and very brown and dark. And and there was one, there was one I remember where there was a It was really quite a dark picture, and and there was a bright colour, it might have been a red or something or other underpainting. And there was one part where he'd spontaneously put on, stuck on, some nasturtium leaves. And then painted over that. And then at a later stage, when everything was stuck down, he peeled back part of the nasturtium leaf and the paint that was on it, and this bright red came shining through from underneath, you know, like an old sort of stucco wall. And I thought, I thought, what a fantastic thing to do with a painting. So, I mean, that was the first time I was aware of his kind of audacity, which I always liked. I always liked his cheek. You know, his kind of larrikin. And, well, he went to Europe, of course, and I didn't really meet him until we moved into Hanover Gate Mansions, which, a building that had Charlie Blackman and Barbara and their kids.

Sandra McGrath What was the number, quick, of Hanover Gate?

Colin Lanceley We were number 42. We were on the ground floor, and one of the smart drawing rooms could turn into a studio, you know. It had panelled walls and stuff. It was the most elegant place, really.

Sandra McGrath No one ever lived as well again until they got rich and famous in Australia, did they?

Colin Lanceley And the porter was always trying to look in to see what I was doing. We had to keep the windows covered so the porter couldn't see what I was doing. Well, he was obviously He could hear my, my drill and stuff, and all the lights burning, and so on, and me banging, and stuff like that. Obviously, not things that ought to be happening in a mansion flat. And Charles Blackman was there, too. He was living there, yes. In one of the next houses or something, or... He was It was in the same building, but in a different part, just a couple of doors down. It had about four entrances in the street, but, in fact, it was all one building. And they were vast, cavernous flats, that's why everyone liked them. And while we were there, we had Martin Sharp, Bob Hughes, Charles Reddington, all come through and renting a room there or sleeping on the floor. And we, I remember it was in that, it was in that front sort of parlour room, wasn't it, that we used to sit and eat? I remember the wonderful evening we had with Colin McGuinness, who was still alive then. And he came and sang all the Australian First World War songs. Yes, and he was an outrageous guy. He was fantastic, and he was, you know, a permanent expatriate. He was a terrific fellow. And I remember an evening with Brett there, too. That's what I want to know. Oh, he had some guy with him who was right right out of it. And he was In the middle of dinner, he got up and started run running at the wall with his head down and banging his belly on these these huge walls. And I sort of said to Brett, 'Is he is he sure he's all right? Shouldn't we do something about it?' Brett gave him a look. And Brett just kind of carried on with the table, with this guy in the other corner.

Sandra McGrath That happened a few more times in life, didn't it? Yeah.

Colin Lanceley And we, we moved to a house in Blenheim Crescent, near Ladbroke Grove, where we saw more of Brett then, because that area was...

Sandra McGrath Well, you moved where? Where did you move to, just so I get it?

Colin Lanceley Blenheim Crescent.

Sandra McGrath Blenheim?

Colin Lanceley B-L-E-N-H-E-I-M.

Sandra McGrath Blenheim Palace.

Colin Lanceley Crescent, the same, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Where, what number? Number 56.

Colin Lanceley André Derain had been across the road at number 65 some years before, and we used to hang out in Portobello Road. That was really the centre of our universe then, but I already had the Marlborough connection, too, which brought me into contact with Brett.

Sandra McGrath What did you do in the Portobello Road?

Colin Lanceley Find things. And we used to shop there. Uh-huh. It's the most fabulous street market, don't you know it?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, I know, I was just I was thinking of course you would, because you lived there.

Colin Lanceley And and junk market and antique market, I mean, with fruit and veg in the middle and junk at one end and antiques at the other.

Sandra McGrath What did you do there?

Colin Lanceley Well, I found a lot of materials. And uh and there were um there were still a number of those um English artists from the British pop movement particularly, that you used to see around there. You'd occasionally see Hockney and Derek Boshier and Joe Tilson, Peter Blake, all floating through the street market. I mean, it was quite a mecca. And the pubs there, Henekey's and... Was Brett ever there, though? Yes. Yeah, that was Brett's scene as well. He lived in Holman Hunt's old studio That's right. in Melbury Road.

Sandra McGrath Now, did you go to frequent the pubs there a lot, in that in that on that corner there in Portobello Road?

Colin Lanceley A bit, we did, yes. We did a bit, yes.

Sandra McGrath Oh, did you have enough money to visit pubs?

Kay Lanceley Yeah, we were okay then. We were all right, yes.

Colin Lanceley Um... And I had had my first show with Marlborough in early 1966 at the New London Gallery, and began to see a bit of Brett then, along with Lawrence Daws, who we fell in with, and we became good friends, actually. You and Lawrence and Brett? Yeah, yes, all of us. And and we used to see Charlie and Arthur, and we'd go off into town and look at exhibitions and so on every now and again, together.

Sandra McGrath And what was Brett doing then? I always feel like Brett was a bit of a loner.

Colin Lanceley Yes. Well, he'd done just He was doing the Christie series. He'd done those fabulous things of Wendy in the Bath. They were painted at Melbury Road, I think, but you'll have to check that. I'm sure they were. Yeah. And the Christie pictures, when when I when we met up with him, because he'd just shown those at Marlborough. I think You'll have to check this one out, too. I think he'd shown them not too long before my first show

Sandra McGrath at Marlborough? Yes. So you were both stablemates in a way, weren't you?

Colin Lanceley Yes, we were stablemates. And Wendy and Kaye used to hang out a little bit together, too, and, I mean, there was Biba in Kensington High Street, for instance, where all the smart girls like Wendy and Kaye used to go for their miniskirts and smart gear.

Sandra McGrath Now what was Biba's, Kaye? Tell me. Biba was this— B-E-A-V-E-R? B-I-B-A. B-I

Colin Lanceley B-A.

Sandra McGrath B-I-B-A. Biba's. Biba, yeah. Biba. Where was it?

Kay Lanceley And that was in Kensington Church Street. High Street. Is it still there? No, it was in Kensington Church Street first, Abingdon Road. And um it was Wendy who told me about it, and it was just full of all these fabulous clothes, and they were all sort of two quid or three quid. Oh, just really, really, really smart.

Colin Lanceley And they were All the London dolly birds used to get the smartest gear in there.

Kay Lanceley And they had sort of knee-high suede boots in all sorts of amazing colours, and they had feather boas and big hats, and, you know, short dresses and long overcoats, and they It was just really stylish stuff. And most of it was terribly cheap, actually. It was always packed.

Colin Lanceley And Kaye and Wendy were both a pair of beautiful chicks.

Kay Lanceley Still are.

Colin Lanceley And they used to have miniskirts and big coats and...

Kay Lanceley We were We were sitting on the top of the bus once and I looked out the window and it had a sale sign in Biba's window, and I said to Col, 'Get off!' And we went in and he was sitting in the window, see, with a cigar stuck in his mouth, which he always had in those days. And there there were all these girls taking their gear off and putting things on. Somebody tried to buy my dress that I'd worn. Everyone was just stripping off in the shop, and Colin was sitting like a pasha with his cigar in the window. It was just amazing.

Sandra McGrath What was Wendy like in those days? I didn't know her in the London days.

Colin Lanceley Really smart.

Kay Lanceley She was really smart. She was really beautiful.

Sandra McGrath Smart clothes.

Kay Lanceley She just had great style.

Colin Lanceley Great style.

Kay Lanceley Really a real kind of personal style, and and that the studio where they lived always looked wonderful. She was a terrific cook.

Colin Lanceley They had a terrific time.

Kay Lanceley Well, they did.

Sandra McGrath What did the flat look like, if you can remember?

Kay Lanceley Well, it was just this huge studio.

Sandra McGrath The This is the Holman Hunt studio?

Kay Lanceley Yeah. And they had a big, um, potbelly stove in it, and the bed was next to that, and there was a sort of galley kitchen, and there was a bathroom, and one little bedroom where Arkie used to sleep.

Colin Lanceley She was tiny then, Arkie.

Kay Lanceley Yeah, she was really little. And the rest of it was workbench and just studio.

Colin Lanceley Pictures.

Kay Lanceley Workbench, pictures.

Colin Lanceley There was a garden which had a sign on the tree saying, Thackeray and his played with his children under this tree.

Sandra McGrath Really? Whereabouts?

Colin Lanceley Yeah.

Sandra McGrath There was a sign on the tree?

Colin Lanceley Yeah. What sort of tree? I can't remember.

Sandra McGrath Can we make it up? Oh, it said, 'Thackeray's children played here'?

Colin Lanceley Thackeray used to play with his children.

Sandra McGrath Thackeray? T-H-A-C-K-E-R-A-Y?

Colin Lanceley Thackeray, yes. William Makepeace Thackeray.

Sandra McGrath You mean as in the novelist?

Colin Lanceley Yes. Thackeray used to play with his children.

Kay Lanceley Under the tree.

Interviewer Who put the sound there?

Colin Lanceley Beside. That had a plaque to Holman Hunt on it.

Interviewer Sorry?

Colin Lanceley That had a plaque to Holman Hunt on the house.

Interviewer Oh.

Colin Lanceley But Brett was in his studio. I think Beryl had the lease.

Kay Lanceley No, Brett did.

Colin Lanceley To that.

Kay Lanceley Brett did.

Colin Lanceley Oh, Brett did?

Kay Lanceley Yeah.

Interviewer What was the address of that?

Colin Lanceley I think it might have been 14 Melbury Road. I'm not sure. We'll have to check that. Uh-huh.

Interviewer Do you think Holman Hunt's work had any, did it inspire him at all at that stage? How could it have made a connection?

Colin Lanceley I don't know. I never heard him talk about Holman Hunt.

Interviewer Did you? No. No, not really. Care for him? You don't have to be crazy that often.

Colin Lanceley Yes, he's famous for that. Brett was very keen on Piero della Francesca, and about that time also he did a big painting based on The Baptism that's in the National Gallery. And that was in the studio then, I remember. He seemed to live quite sort of openly, in an odd sort of way. I mean, I'm such a secretive worker, but he's You could see what was You know, when you were around there, you know, he had plenty of people popping in and so on. You could see what he was working on. I hate people seeing unfinished work, but he didn't seem to mind that at all. And it was always Bob Dylan and Ravi Shankar.

Interviewer Wendy, would she have been like the normal housewife with a baby, you know, cooking, cleaning, taking the baby to the park?

Kay Lanceley Um, well she did that. She used to take the baby to the park every day. I mean, she was she did all those things because the place always looked great. Yeah.

Interviewer All his studios always look great, don't they?

Kay Lanceley Yeah. And I think Beryl really... I mean, they lived so closely together because they just had this really, it was one big room, basically.

Interviewer Was Arkie born in in London?

Colin Lanceley Yes.

Interviewer I thought so. Where was she born? Which hospital did she come out of?

Colin Lanceley You'll have to check with Beryl these things. Yeah. I remember buying a pair of shoes in Spain for Arkie.

Interviewer Did you?

Kay Lanceley Did you? Oh, it must have been tiny.

Colin Lanceley Little white boots.

Interviewer Spanish boots and Spanish leather. Yeah, what made you think to do that? What were they, size 1?

Colin Lanceley They were little. They weren't size 1. They were about that size, about size 5 or something. You'll have to check these facts with Beryl, I would think.

Interviewer She was living in London then too, wasn't she?

Kay Lanceley Oh, yes. She had a great place there. It was um right at Knightsbridge.

Interviewer She still got that? No, she moved from there.

Colin Lanceley I think she's selling it all, but maybe has sold it.

Kay Lanceley She used to grow millions of sweet peas in the bathtub on the roof. And her house was terrific actually. She used to have a very bright, social life. We used to go there and have drinks a lot. She always had people round for drinks.

Colin Lanceley When you're in London, you could also get in touch with Penny Allen.

Interviewer Oh, yeah.

Colin Lanceley And her neighbour, Beth Patrick. Very close to Brett.

Interviewer And her neighbour?

Colin Lanceley Beth Patrick.

Kay Lanceley Patrick. She's also a girl's best and oldest friend.

Interviewer Uh-huh.

Kay Lanceley And Arkie and her daughter, Anna, Anna were both have always been really good friends, even though Anna's a bit older than Arkie.

Interviewer Anna? Anna Patrick.

Kay Lanceley Anna Patrick.

Interviewer What were the sort of places you would meet in London?

Kay Lanceley We used to go to each other's houses for dinner and lunches and things like that.

Colin Lanceley And we met at openings quite a lot. Yeah, Marlborough.

Interviewer What did you think about being there?

Colin Lanceley I loved it. I thought it was wonderful. Once that Once I was offered my first exhibition...

Kay Lanceley You nearly didn't come back, did you?

Colin Lanceley No. I thought it was the centre of the universe.

Interviewer And did everyone else think that too?

Kay Lanceley It was wonderful.

Colin Lanceley I think they probably did. It was such an exciting time to be in. Yes, it was a wonderful art town. It's still a wonderful art town. It's just that nobody's buying it anymore. But it is a fabulous place to see art. It always has been. Yeah. I mean, it's such a crossroads, the exhibitions. I mean, Marlborough at that time, Sandra, they were doing the most incredible shows. Things I remember one that I've never forgotten called Kandinsky and His Friends. And it was Kandinsky's friends at the Bauhaus, you know, including the composer Arnold Schoenberg and his paintings. An amazingly researched exhibition which would, you know, be someone's PhD thesis these days.

Interviewer Certainly would.

Colin Lanceley And Marlborough just had these shows.

Interviewer Who was the director then?

Colin Lanceley And they had access to all Well, it was Lloyd and Fischer, but it was Fischer, I think, who had had access to the collection.

Interviewer Who was the inspiration?

Colin Lanceley Fischer and his son, I would think. Harry Fischer and his son Wolfgang.

Kay Lanceley It was a museum-quality exhibition and I don't think there was anything for sale. They'd actually borrowed back all these works that they'd sold.

Colin Lanceley Yes. And when Kokoschka was having his affair with Alma Mahler, you know, Mahler's widow, he painted all these fans for her. They had an exhibition of the fans. I mean, you just never see things like that normally, nor do you expect to, really, you know. But they had access to all of this stuff, and the exhibitions actually had a terrific kind of resonance of the period. You know, they were really quite striking. There was another There was another Matisse exhibition which in which all of the paintings had been sold originally by Marlborough, and they were major Matisses that now you kind of, you know, know about because they've been so reproduced and they're such a kind of public property. But these all came out of small European museum collections and private collections.

Interviewer Staggering stuff.

Colin Lanceley Which one Are they still alive, Fischer? No, Wolfgang Fischer is.

Kay Lanceley He is.

Colin Lanceley But he's he moved the gallery to St James's, and they've only just recently decided to close up.

Interviewer What the heck? Because I noticed when I was there. Yeah. Why do you think they did that?

Kay Lanceley Well, they're very...

Colin Lanceley Well, it's quite a frugal business.

Kay Lanceley Wolfgang just decided he didn't want to do it anymore.

Interviewer How would you describe Wolfgang?

Kay Lanceley Well, they did do that. Hmm.

Interviewer How would you describe him? Was he Was he a Duveen type? Well, I was actually asked to meet him once and I turned it down, which was very silly of me.

Kay Lanceley No, I don't think Harry was more like that.

Colin Lanceley Harry was very flamboyant, you know. He gushed and threw his arms in the air and was very Viennese and fantastic. He came into our place when we were in Hanover Gate, which was when it all started, and looked around and all that and said to us, he said, "Did... Can I do anything smaller?" For those paintings, he thinks, you know, "No, not really. Can't sort of You know, I didn't have anything small at the moment." But, "Oh, I think it's wonderful. I think it's absolutely wonderful." And he was off in his big car and so on. And soon after, a few days later, I got summoned in to arrange my exhibition.

Interviewer Yeah, of course.

Colin Lanceley Wolfgang was a very academic, scholarly...

Interviewer So there was a father and son, I'm quite confused about this,

Colin Lanceley is Wolfgang Fischer and Harry Fischer? Harry's the father who's now deceased.

Interviewer Harry Fischer.

Colin Lanceley Yeah. And it was he and Lloyd who started Marlborough.

Kay Lanceley Lloyd being...

Colin Lanceley Who's his first name? I don't know.

Kay Lanceley Who's Lloyd?

Colin Lanceley What's his first name? It's a made-up name anyway, because...

Interviewer Oh, it is.

Colin Lanceley Yes, Frank Lloyd. He must have a very strange European Jewish name.

Kay Lanceley I don't know.

Colin Lanceley I don't know what his first name was.

Interviewer Now, why was he interested, why were either of them, Harry or Lloyd or Wolfgang, interested in Australian painters?

Colin Lanceley I don't I don't really know the reasons for that.

Interviewer What do you think, Kay?

Kay Lanceley Um, well Sidney Nolan showed with them, was enormously successful.

Interviewer Would he have introduced you all to him? To them?

Kay Lanceley Um, no, John Russell's introduced Colin to them. He's the icon for it here.

Interviewer Would he have introduced Brett's work there?

Colin Lanceley I don't think so. I'm not sure, though. See, Brett had shown previously at the Zwemmer Gallery, I think, and possibly even at the Redfern, I'm not sure.

Interviewer He didn't... he did show at the Redfern, didn't he?

Kay Lanceley I know that he went in there. I think you should go and find that story.

Colin Lanceley You'll have to check these facts.

Interviewer Sorry, Kay?

Kay Lanceley What was that story about Brett taking his drawings into the Redfern?

Colin Lanceley Oh, yes, that one. I was told this, I don't know whether it's true or not. But I was told, and I can't remember who told me, but that, I mean, when a young artist tries to approach one of those West End galleries, it's the most awful scene, really, because they are so snooty, you know, whether they know anything or not, they just have this appalling manner that immediately their first instinct is to freeze you out and make you feel like a worm, and then you'll

Interviewer Go away.

Colin Lanceley go away. And and it was John Russell who, who in my case said, "I've seen how the dealers treat young, unknown artists, and I'd like to sort of mediate on your behalf." And I know I think I only partially knew what he meant, but I'd heard of the story about Brett at that stage, where he'd gone into the into the Redfern with a portfolio of his drawings under his arm and to show them, and he put the portfolio down and opened it up, and they were pretending not to know, you know. The guy he was showing the drawings to was pretending that he didn't have the slightest bit of interest and was distracted by the phone and all this kind of business. There was a client, a gentleman in the office who was coming and going, who'd been coming and going, and and I think he must have been told, "Well, you know, that's enough of that. You know, take them away." And anyway, he got he went back up to Cork Street. And because it was down in the basement part of the Redfern.

Interviewer Yeah.

Colin Lanceley And the chap who'd been in the in the office that he'd only vaguely noticed, fellow in a suit, tall, well-dressed, came up and stood behind him and caught up with him in the street and said, "Look, I got a glimpse of those drawings you were showing. I'd like to have a look at them." So they went over to that little cafe on the corner, that horrible little coffee shop in Cork Street, and he showed this guy, and it was David Niven, the actor.

Interviewer Oh, good Lord!

Colin Lanceley And he bought a couple from Brett, which cheered Brett up no end.

Interviewer Oh.

Colin Lanceley So it hadn't been a total waste. Now, I don't know whether after that he actually did eventually have an exhibition at the Redfern or not.

Interviewer Yeah.

Colin Lanceley But I know that he had a show at, I think, Zwemmer Gallery. But you'll have to check this.

Interviewer I will.

Colin Lanceley I mean, this was just before we arrived.

Interviewer Ah, that whole...

Colin Lanceley This would have Yes, this would have been just...

Interviewer All of this was just before you arrived. That would have been 1965, wouldn't it?

Colin Lanceley It would have been before that.

Kay Lanceley '64.

Colin Lanceley Yeah. Maybe '64, or something like that, '64.

Interviewer You know, Brett himself was very hazy on dates, actually, because I was listening to some tapes this morning, and the tapes I did...

Colin Lanceley You see, Wolfgang knew Brett in London before we arrived, in the time when he was in Ladbroke Grove, and that's Michael Johnson.

Interviewer Yes, so he's in Spain at the moment, I know. Yeah. Colin: Yeah.

Colin Lanceley And also Tony McGillick, I think, was there. Interviewer: That's right, I've got his phone number. Colin: And Lawrence will also be able to fill in something.

Kay Lanceley He was there as well, he was in Ladbroke Grove, too.

Interviewer You know what I'm confused... Is Ladbroke Grove where the Holman Hunt house... Colin: No. Kay: No. Interviewer: No. Ladbroke Grove is after Holman Hunt.

Colin Lanceley Well, yes, Holman Hunt's house is is down in... down near Kensington High Street, Interviewer: Yeah. Colin: below Holland Park. Interviewer: Yeah, I'm going to go see this one when I'm in London. Colin: Melbury Road.

Kay Lanceley And Ladbroke Grove runs parallel to Portobello Road.

Colin Lanceley Yeah.

Sandra McGrath There's Notting Hill Gate in between. And they were in... So when you arrived, though, they were still...

Kay Lanceley They were in Kensington then. They were in Kensington.

Colin Lanceley In Holman Hunt's studio, yeah. And then you were there for how long? Oh, you were there for a long... ...time, you were there... Well, eventually I think we probably were, because he then went to America, and then he... ...he won that, um... Got the Harkness... Harkness Fellowship, yes.

Kay Lanceley And Wendy was really excited about it, because they, they, it was a really quite substantial amount of money, and she said they even give you an allowance to buy Christmas presents for your family, and isn't it wonderful having all that security for two years?

Sandra McGrath That is fantastic, isn't it?

Kay Lanceley And she was, um, I remember her sewing all these clothes and everything to take to New York. And then Brett, um, we went out to have dinner with them the night before they left. And Brett, you know, gave us this little painting, a little tiny painting that we still have.

Sandra McGrath What is it?

Kay Lanceley It's called Think Not Think.

Sandra McGrath Terrific.

Kay Lanceley Mmm. It's a Bondi lifesaver.

Sandra McGrath Where is it, here?

Colin Lanceley Yeah, at the back here.

Kay Lanceley And then Brett and Colin were, you know, sort of, had lots of wine to drink and cried about how they were going to miss each other, and... ...and Brett said, "I want you to have all my art books, Colin." And Colin was saying, "Oh, that's wonderful." And when we got in the car to come home, Colin said, "My God, how did Brett possibly afford to buy all these coffee table art books? I can't believe it. He must have been making much more money than I thought." And when we got home, they all had "Kensington & Chelsea Public Libraries".

Sandra McGrath That's a wonderful story. Oh, I love it. That's a great story. That is... Oh, that's a great story. That's the best story I've heard about Brett. You're the best storyteller.

Colin Lanceley That... there's one that I tell there. I mean, Brett was immensely funny.

Sandra McGrath Oh, he was.

Colin Lanceley I mean, he was a really witty, funny fellow. And he did, he did say that thing about holding forks like that. I haven't heard that, yeah. He said, he gave me some advice, sort of thing, when we all first arrived. He said, um, "They think Australians are people who don't know how to hold their forks properly." He's really, really funny.

Kay Lanceley And then when he, when he got to New York, he wrote Colin this marvellous letter, and it had written on the top of it, "Hotel Bad Speller". And, and Colin, who also spelt phonetically, said, "I can see Brett's whole education flashing before my eyes." And it's a wonderful letter. We've still got it somewhere.

Sandra McGrath Have you got it here? We'll find it when we move.

Kay Lanceley We'll find it when we move.

Colin Lanceley It'll... it'll turn up when we move.

Sandra McGrath Can we put it in the, in the book as a letter to you?

Colin Lanceley Yeah. That'd be wonderful. Yeah, I haven't... ...read it for a long time. I think it must be on the Chelsea Hotel pad.

Kay Lanceley It might be in that box down the coast, do you think?

Colin Lanceley No, that's the correspondence up here, always. It'll turn up when I'm moving things. Yeah.

Sandra McGrath That'd be fabulous if we could just put it in there, sort of as a, you know, notes from New York.

Kay Lanceley Notes from New York. And you heard Michael Johnson talking about the postcards?

Sandra McGrath Yes. Wonderful, that postcard.

Colin Lanceley Then they went to see Morandi.

Sandra McGrath Yes, tell the story for the tape, though, because it was... I don't have that.

Colin Lanceley Well, I know, but get him to do that. I can't remember it properly. He's very funny, actually. And, uh...

Sandra McGrath What, what did you think he thought of New York? Was he on any hard... ...drugs, or drugs that you noticed when he was...

Colin Lanceley He was always on something.

Sandra McGrath ...or was it mostly alcohol?

Colin Lanceley Well, everyone was smoking pot. Everyone was smoking pot, and, and also there was a bit of tripping around, too, with, um, chemicals.

Kay Lanceley I don't know, I don't know if, um... Do you want...

Colin Lanceley Martin Sharp was always trying to get me to do it, and I was always resistant.

Kay Lanceley Yeah, I never took it.

Colin Lanceley And I, uh, well, I just don't like... I just feel that consciousness is so precious, and it's so precious a tool that you shouldn't fuck about with it, you know, especially not knowing what you're doing, kind of thing.

Sandra McGrath Yes.

Colin Lanceley And so I never, I never had the...

Sandra McGrath Urge?

Colin Lanceley No. Well, no, no. It didn't, it didn't look like an adventure to me, it looked like a...

Sandra McGrath ...nightmare.

Colin Lanceley Could have been a, could be a disaster, and I think it could be, too. I mean, there are people who do have disasters, and do have nightmares, you know, never come back, sort of thing. I, I couldn't, you know, I couldn't get into it, Sandra. It was offered to me all the time.

Sandra McGrath What about you, Kay?

Kay Lanceley I just never took it because, um, I was just worried that I'd have a really bad trip. So, and I, I smoked pot a bit, but not very much.

Sandra McGrath My attitude to drugs was that I just didn't like the idea of not being in control, but alcohol was enough of a disarranger.

Kay Lanceley Yeah, it sure is. So, I mean, we really, we were very heavily into the alcohol and the wine, but we...

Colin Lanceley Well, it was only Spanish Burgundy at nine and six a bottle, that's all we could afford.

Kay Lanceley At that time, yeah.

Colin Lanceley And we were hardly heavy drinkers.

Kay Lanceley No, we couldn't afford to be, that was the only reason we weren't.

Colin Lanceley We bought a bottle of cheap champagne. We used to think it was the cheapest way of getting drunk, because you just got on your ear...

Kay Lanceley ...and half a bottle...

Colin Lanceley ...half a bottle each.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Colin Lanceley No, they weren't big drinkers.

Sandra McGrath Big, no, big...

Colin Lanceley No, not then. Later on, yes.

Sandra McGrath When, when, when Brett would come for dinner, Brett and Wendy would come for dinner,

Colin Lanceley everyone used to bring a bottle of wine.

Sandra McGrath Yeah. So really the, the, the drugging... No, you can't really say the drugging started in New York then, can you, really?

Kay Lanceley Oh, it wasn't... It was just smoking a bit of grass in London. I don't think it was anything more than that. And the other people that we met there were the Delafield Cooks.

Sandra McGrath Oh, Bill Delafield Cook! How could I forget them? Were they there at that same time?

Kay Lanceley We, we all had lunch together there one day, I remember. Yes. And, um, we didn't really ever see much of them in London. In fact, we've seen more of them since we've been here.

Colin Lanceley Yeah, but he would have some recollections.

Kay Lanceley And he'd know about the Redfern, you see, because he showed at the Redfern. Yes, that's right. But, um, Brett and Wendy were, you know, they were very glamorous. They were just very glamorous, both of them. She always looked wonderful, and...

Colin Lanceley There's also Tony Reichardt, who lives now in far north Queensland.

Kay Lanceley And he was Brett's dealer. He looked after... And he worked at Marlborough... Brett at Marlborough.

Colin Lanceley He was, uh, he looked after Brett, he looked after me, he looked after Sid. He ran the New London Gallery, which is where we all showed at that time. That was the one that went... Do you remember, at New Bond Street, the bit that went downstairs?

Sandra McGrath Uh-huh. Most of it was downstairs, although there's, of course, Marlborough being upstairs. The New London Gallery was... No, I never saw it.

Colin Lanceley Well, they've moved from there. They're round in Albemarle Street now. Yeah.

Kay Lanceley Do you have Lawrence's phone number and address?

Sandra McGrath I need his phone number. I've got his address because I wrote him a letter about the Museum of Modern Art people, but I didn't actually...

Colin Lanceley Yes, he told us about them all coming up.

Sandra McGrath What did he think of that?

Colin Lanceley Oh, I think he had a great time.

Sandra McGrath They loved his house and everything.

Kay Lanceley Yeah. Oh, it's a great place. We're going up there soon.

Sandra McGrath You're going up when?

Kay Lanceley Um, we'll see him about the 23rd. Two weeks.

Sandra McGrath Give him my best, will you?

Colin Lanceley Yes, I will. And I'll... ...I'll tell him that to expect to hear from you.

Sandra McGrath Oh, or you would have spoken to him by then.

Kay Lanceley It's 074... ...949... ...500.

Sandra McGrath Hang on, say it again please.

Kay Lanceley 074... Yeah. ...949... Yeah. ...500. And the fax... ...is 074... ...949... ...769.

Sandra McGrath Everyone's got a fax. You've got a fax?

Colin Lanceley Yes, I have, yes.

Sandra McGrath I do too. What's your fax number? Do I have that?

Colin Lanceley 360... ...4743.

Sandra McGrath And will you keep that number in, in the new place?

Colin Lanceley I don't know whether we can. Don't know whether... send you a card.

Kay Lanceley I think it's a different exchange, actually. I think it's 33something. Yeah, I think it is. Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Yeah, drag. Yeah. But were Wendy and Brett considered... It's hard, uh, sort of the star of the group, or were they... they stood out? They stood out among the Australian group, or...?

Colin Lanceley Oh, yes. I don't think there was any doubt about that.

Sandra McGrath Was he considered...?

Kay Lanceley Well, Sid would have been the star.

Colin Lanceley Sid would have been, well...

Kay Lanceley And Arthur.

Colin Lanceley Yes, but in, yes, but in our generation...

Kay Lanceley Yes, he was.

Sandra McGrath He was, could looked upon by his peer group, even?

Colin Lanceley Yes. The, the, the English painters of our generation distrusted him, and, and told nasty stories about him and stuff.

Sandra McGrath Well, like what?

Kay Lanceley John Hoyland said he's the towpath murderer, because all the towpath murders stopped when Brett went to America.

Sandra McGrath [laughter] What?

Kay Lanceley He was this towpath murderer.

Sandra McGrath What is a towpath? You know, the towpath...

Colin Lanceley ...the path on the side of canals. Yeah.

Kay Lanceley And there was somebody murdering people on the towpath. I don't know...

Colin Lanceley He was a serial killer, like Christie.

Kay Lanceley Yes, and when, when he, when he went to America, they stopped, so... This is all because Brett... This is all because Brett painted the Christie pictures.

Sandra McGrath The Christie series. Now, who, who... I'm so glad someone said something sort of slightly wicked about him, because everybody in Tokyo, he's just the saint. Before you know, it's Saint Brett now.

Colin Lanceley They really are. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not fair to him, because he was such a...

Kay Lanceley ...naughty... Yeah. Yeah, he was very...

Sandra McGrath Now, tell me about the guy who said he wasn't, he was the, the serial murderer.

Colin Lanceley Well, John Hoyland swears that Brett must be the towpath murderer, because of circumstantial evidence, or coincidental evidence, I suppose,

Kay Lanceley because the murders stopped when Brett went to America, and he'd just been painting the Christie pictures.

Colin Lanceley [laughter] And... And do you have... I mean, I think the thing about the art books, because we had such a kind of clinging to each other and crying and stuff,

Sandra McGrath [laughter] All that really moving kind of thing.

Kay Lanceley And as soon as we got in the car... And they all had this... Colin said... I mean, all the tears and all this emotional stuff stopped, and he said, "My God!"

Sandra McGrath [laughter] "How could Brett..." What, do you remember what any of the books were? Were they...

Colin Lanceley Oh, they were big...

Sandra McGrath ...Matisse?

Colin Lanceley ...Thames & Hudsons, yes, and Francis Bacon, and, I mean, every, all sorts of things.

Kay Lanceley Braques...

Colin Lanceley Every, all sorts of things.

Kay Lanceley Yeah, it was really terrific books.

Colin Lanceley All the most expensive books you can get.

Sandra McGrath [laughter] I wonder who's got those books now? Probably you do.

Colin Lanceley I might still have some of them.

Kay Lanceley I'm sure we have.

Sandra McGrath Well, take a look.

Colin Lanceley And it was one of those kind of exhibitions, something called "Ventures", that was being put together for Marlborough, that introduced me, too. And very good at doing the kind of shows that look around to see what new people are doing. Yeah. We don't do that here. No, that's certainly true. And both he and I got our start that way.

Sandra McGrath Brett at the Whitechapel and I met Marlborough. Let's move on a bit to You didn't see Brett in New York at

Colin Lanceley all? No, we I hadn't been We'd never been to America at that stage. So I didn't go there until the

Kay Lanceley Frumkin connection. Colin had a show there with Marlborough, and Yes. And they took my work, didn't take me. I mean, we didn't go because we didn't have enough money. And then Colin's show sold out, and he was with He was in a group show with four English painters, and, um, all his work sold, and then it was sort of too late to go because the show was finished, and we felt really regretful that he didn't go then. But we didn't go to New York until fairly recently. Recent years, yeah.

Colin Lanceley '85 was the first time I went, and that was in response to Allan Frumkin seeing my work in the Carnegie and asking me to go and see him. I took him a couple of pictures and had a show in '86, which was my first show with him, and we had two big shows last year, one in New York, one in Chicago. And that connection really started after we came back here, thank goodness.

Sandra McGrath Took a while. Absent.

Colin Lanceley And it was because he saw my work in the Carnegie. I thought I was giving it all up. You know, being on the other side of the world, you know, nobody had noticed. Yeah. So that was it. So our experience of America has been, you know, all that.

Sandra McGrath It's I don't know who would know. Did Brett ever talk to you about his experience in the US? Because I don't feel it was actually very successful. No, who's going to know? I'm just trying to think who would know.

Kay Lanceley I I think Beryl told me some really dreadful stories about things that happened when they were there, I think.

Sandra McGrath Like what? Uh...

Kay Lanceley

Colin Lanceley If Beryl would be the one, I'd say, wouldn't she?

Kay Lanceley I I mean, I Do you get on well with her?

Sandra McGrath So-so, she's a bit hot and cold with me.

Kay Lanceley You know, she's a really hard lady.

Sandra McGrath She is a lovely lady. I like her a lot.

Colin Lanceley I mean, I think at the moment she's getting it from all sides.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I know. That's Wendy, you know.

Colin Lanceley Wendy Wendy, for instance, is is giving her it. Well, Wendy is giving everyone a hard time, but I think I think Beryl's in the firing line.

Sandra McGrath The weeping widow.

Kay Lanceley Well, Beryl just is so offended by everything. And she is so offended by Wendy behaving like the weeping widow when she she'd actually been giving Brett such a bad time for the last five years.

Colin Lanceley I don't know who would be able to tell you about New York.

Kay Lanceley I think she just wanted to get away.

Sandra McGrath Well, I think that... I'll just take that off the table.

Colin Lanceley I don't know. And and Brett came out of the studio, ashen-faced, and inside was Jenny Dickerson, working for Mason Gray Strange, tagging pictures with some two big hoods in his studio on Wendy's behalf, tagging pictures, you know, the titles, the size, and all this kind of thing. Who was doing that? Jenny Dickerson? Working for the for, um... Bob Dickerson's wife? Yeah, who used to work for that auction firm. Oh, yeah. And she'd been engaged by, I presume, Wendy's solicitors, and Brett just said... and Brett came up,

Kay Lanceley said, "Mate, do you know who's doing this to me?"

Colin Lanceley And then when I saw him, he said, "It's just appalling. She won't stop, just goes on and on and on and on," "and everything all the money's going to the lawyers," and and so on. And, uh, and I said, "Why" "why don't you just get up in court and say, um, none of those pictures were painted by me, and I deny authorship of them," "and what's more, I'm never going to paint another picture, so you can sort it out amongst yourselves." "They're all fakes." I said, [laughs] "If you did that," "they might stop and leave you alone." He was in a bad way, and he was back taking heroin.

Sandra McGrath Um, the critique... Oh, this... ...written by Diana Simmonds, um...

Kay Lanceley ...that was very disparaging of Brett, and that depressed him unbearably. He just, he was so upset by it. Mm, it's terrible.

Colin Lanceley Just terrible. He went up to see Lawrence at that point, didn't he?

Kay Lanceley He was deeply upset by it. And he was talking about Wendy. He said, "Look," "I'd love to talk to her," you know, "because Sandy's been spending all this money on lawyers, and..." You know, she went into his exhibition at Australian Galleries in Sydney and, um, with with lawyers or something, and just says, "I had half of that, and half of that, and half of that."

Sandra McGrath I was away for all this, so I didn't see any of that, but I saw Brett in Venice. He told me that he'd just been He didn't feel he could paint anymore because he didn't know if he painted something, it would, you know, have it... ...wrapped in the air, gone.

Kay Lanceley And evidently he left some bequest or other, some bequest to Janice in his will, and Wendy's going to go to court and say that he was off his head when he did it, and she's going to contest the will.

Sandra McGrath I don't know anything about the will, but I'm sure it'll get a lot of publicity in the months and years to come. Yeah.

Colin Lanceley There's been an ad in the press from the lawyers, asking if anybody knows the whereabouts of another will, because there is supposed to be another will.

Sandra McGrath No, there isn't. I know that much. There isn't. The will that's there is there. Uh-huh.

Colin Lanceley Because I think because he also left stuff to the art gallery and stuff like that.

Sandra McGrath I know, I know. I'm just taking It's awful. He should have had more... Frightened himself. He frightened himself. Frightened himself? Yeah. Ask Lawrence about it. He thinks he knows a bit about it.

Colin Lanceley He may have gone and gone and gone after that. He often went up and stayed up there when he just wanted to get away from everything.

Sandra McGrath And when you came back to Sydney, did you see much of him?

Colin Lanceley Oh, no. He rang Colin as soon as we got back and said, um...

Sandra McGrath When was that? When did you get Give us the specific date. '81. August the 1st, 1981. You're good on dates, aren't you?

Kay Lanceley I just remember that one. [laughs]

Colin Lanceley Why? [laughter]

Kay Lanceley I've never been so unhappy in my life. [laughter]

Sandra McGrath Really?

Kay Lanceley And Brett rang Colin within a couple of days of our arrival.

Kay Lanceley Colin used to always see Brett when he came out here to have an exhibition.

Sandra McGrath Oh, where?

Colin Lanceley To Australia.

Sandra McGrath To Australia. Yeah, when he was back here, then.

Colin Lanceley Yeah.

Kay Lanceley And he he he he came back and told me about so he'd gone off to have lunch with Brett and Wendy and when he got to the wharf at Lavender Bay, Wendy was waiting to get on the ferry to leave and he said, "No, you can't do that. You're not going. I've only just arrived. You'll just have to come back with me." She said, "No, I've had a fight with Brett and I'm going." He said, "No, no you're not. You'll just have to come back."

Sandra McGrath So did you go back?

Colin Lanceley Yeah.

Kay Lanceley Oh yeah.

Sandra McGrath Do you think Brett was...

Colin Lanceley I like his com- I mean, when he is really bubbling, he's fantastic to be with, and uh most stimulating. He once came round to uh our place. I'm a hopeless photographer and uh I mean I really do just take for the family snaps and really kind of dumb kind of pictures,

Kay Lanceley mostly,

Colin Lanceley and uh even my son is a better photographer than I am. And uh he now has the camera, but I had this Canon camera, and uh and Brett came in one day and he says, "Oh, mate, um you got a camera I can borrow?" And I said, "Oh, you're welcome to have it, but it's not a very good one, doesn't take very good pictures."

Kay Lanceley He said, "It'll do, I just want to I just want to go out to the pub and photograph He said, "I want to go to the Irish pub round the corner and photograph some drunks because I'm doing a painting about my father."

Colin Lanceley That's right. And um and I said, "Well yes, you're welcome to take it, but I mean it's"

Sandra McGrath Which Irish pub, around which corner?

Colin Lanceley Would've been Henekey's, I think.

Sandra McGrath Oh, we're talking about London then?

Kay Lanceley Yeah, yeah.

Colin Lanceley Yes. And uh and I said, "Oh yes, you're welcome to have it, but it's a sort of lousy lousy camera." And he took the most incredible photograph.

Kay Lanceley Oh wonderful, wonderful.

Colin Lanceley Really, incredible photograph. He was a terrific photographer.

Kay Lanceley Fabulous photographer. I mean it was so humiliating for Colin, because we were all saying, "Oh, our lousy camera."

Colin Lanceley "I always blame the camera."

Sandra McGrath Oh, really? Did he ever talk to you about Clem?

Kay Lanceley That was the only time he ever mentioned. He just said he was going to photograph some drunks in the Irish pub, because he was doing a picture about his father.

Sandra McGrath I don't think he ever did, though. That was an old one.

Kay Lanceley Yeah, he did, didn't he? Don't you remember that?

Colin Lanceley I think he did do something, yeah. A picture of two, something.

Sandra McGrath A didn't that one have the hand, wasn't it?

Colin Lanceley Yes, I think there was. It was that one.

Kay Lanceley Oh, I'm not sure, but it was the same period as that. I know I know when it was, when he was doing that.

Colin Lanceley You'll have to research that, I don't I have...

Sandra McGrath Actually, he usually did, if he started something, he usually finished it. He didn't usually uh you know, if he had an idea, he usually would take it through to the end. But I'm not aware of this picture.

Kay Lanceley I'm sure that he did do one of his father with a glass between his hands, and that uh and it was like in the photograph he took with that moving hand that sort of...

Colin Lanceley Yes, yes, you could be right.

Kay Lanceley But I'm not absolutely sure.

Sandra McGrath I think his father died when he just got to London, didn't he?

Colin Lanceley I'm not even sure about that. All this family stuff you'll have to get from Beryl.

Sandra McGrath Beryl. That's right.

Colin Lanceley Um and the other person, and she would be really good to talk to, is Beth Patrick.

Sandra McGrath Okay.

Colin Lanceley And Beth, the last time I saw her, which is now a few years ago, she had some nice pictures of Brett's from that early period. I don't know whether she owned them or whether she was looking after them, or what. But she had some beauties. Those early landscapes, those biomorphic things with the reds and they are...

Sandra McGrath I saw some in Beryl's apartment, in here.

Colin Lanceley Mhm.

Sandra McGrath She's brought a lot of the stuff over.

Colin Lanceley Oh, maybe they were Beth's, maybe Beth was looking after them. As long as Wendy doesn't get her hands on them.

Sandra McGrath Yes, I think...

Colin Lanceley Anyone who's got a picture now are going to keep quiet about it.

Kay Lanceley Really.

Sandra McGrath Hide them.

Colin Lanceley I bet.

Sandra McGrath Yes, it's amazing. I mean everyone's quite Wendy has created an aura now, which I think is really quite, and I'm a bit this way about her too, where everyone's really quite so frightened of her.

Colin Lanceley Yeah.

Kay Lanceley I just I mean I just feel like, is that off?

Sandra McGrath I think it's finished, actually.

Kay Lanceley I feel like, like she's sort of safe in a way now, because Brett can't get at her. She can't be jealous anymore.

Sandra McGrath No.

Kay Lanceley It's terribly sad, isn't she? Terribly sad. And um I mean we saw Brett with Janice when we went to um Sydney Dance Company, it was...

Colin Lanceley Oh yeah, in the Opera House.

Kay Lanceley Yeah. And Brett was off everything then.

Colin Lanceley Yeah.

Kay Lanceley She was very good for him for a time.

Colin Lanceley Mhm.

Kay Lanceley He said, "I've given up everything except these, but I can't do without it. I mean, I can't give up everything." He seemed okay.

Sandra McGrath I'm digressing a bit, but uh Brett having to having his passport taken away by her was just...

Kay Lanceley She had his passport taken away?

Colin Lanceley Oh, I didn't know that.

Sandra McGrath I think that would have been so undignified, having Wendy taking your passport away.

Kay Lanceley I didn't know that people could still do things like that to you.

Colin Lanceley I didn't either.

Sandra McGrath Well, that's apparently... Oh, it's apparently one of the reasons that Arkie gets so furious with her and rang up and said, "How dare you take Brett's passport away from him?" Janice actually told me this, because Janice was in Paris waiting for him.

Colin Lanceley I thought you had to be a criminal before they could take away your passport.

Kay Lanceley So, she was doing it to stop him from going to see Janice in Paris.

Sandra McGrath Janice in Paris. Yes.

Kay Lanceley Must have had people following him, trying to find out where he was.

Sandra McGrath Of course she won. She is going to be a very, very rich woman. Well, she didn't, you know, she...

Colin Lanceley I thought that one couple, we saw those in the studio.

Sandra McGrath Wendy actually Wendy actually rang me about those, uh just for me to see them. I think she said they should be in a museum, and I think what she was implying was I should buy them to give to the museum. And I thought, I can't believe this. I mean, she didn't actually say that, but I imagine why she wanted me to go see them specially.

Colin Lanceley Are you on good terms with her?

Sandra McGrath Well, she's... I'm seeing her next week, I think. She may cancel it. Um but she seems to think that I'm not on good terms with her, because I did write a um what do you call it, an affidavit, something saying Brett asked me to, but when an artist's work was completed, it was signed, or wasn't signed.

Colin Lanceley Yeah, I wrote an opinion about that, which rather leaned heavily in the way he wanted me to write it.

Kay Lanceley Why not?

Sandra McGrath Well, why not?

Colin Lanceley Well, I thought it's an open and down question really. Some things happen in the 20th century. Normally, pictures being placed in studios in some form that...

Kay Lanceley Yes, I mean that's the authentication.

Colin Lanceley Actually, that

Sandra McGrath What words, both of you um what's your what do you remember, Kay, about it?

Kay Lanceley Um I just, I was so distressed that day.

Sandra McGrath Remember?

Kay Lanceley I I Lawrence Lawrence's speech at the memorial service I thought was just terrific, yeah. And Michael Johnson's. And I actually thought the both speeches, I mean Lawrence tried seriously to address Brett's working life, and Michael spoke of him in in a really friendly, absolutely loving friend kind of way. And I actually thought that they were much better than anything that happened at the crematorium. I mean that was very tense.

Sandra McGrath Carol said Arkie got the, I actually heard Arkie at the memorial service, in that, but they all said Arkie had gotten the wrong reel for that speech.

Colin Lanceley Yeah.

Kay Lanceley And uh

Colin Lanceley And uh

Kay Lanceley and somebody else said she was quite good once she stopped talking about herself.

Colin Lanceley It was a studied actor's performance, really, more than...

Kay Lanceley I just felt in the end like nobody loved him enough.

Colin Lanceley Yeah, what was he doing down at Thirroul by himself?

Kay Lanceley Mhm.

Colin Lanceley In such a bad way. It's just dreadful. Someone like him.

Sandra McGrath I don't think he had really many friends in the end, Colin.

Colin Lanceley What a terrible...

Sandra McGrath What do you think Brett would have liked about the funeral?

Kay Lanceley The sunflowers. The music.

Sandra McGrath Where were the sunflowers?

Kay Lanceley Well, someone brought a bunch of sunflowers, I bet it was Martin Sharp.

Colin Lanceley He brought a bonsai tree.

Kay Lanceley Oh, that's right. I remember.

Sandra McGrath But there were some, there...

Kay Lanceley They had that They had Brett's music. I mean,

Sandra McGrath Dylan.

Kay Lanceley Yeah, they had Dylan, and um Pink Floyd.

Sandra McGrath Dire Straits. Dire Straits.

Kay Lanceley second-rate. But then, when we moved into Hanover Gate Mansions, Colin, um, just worked, didn't contact anyone or try to do. He just did all this work, and the first thing he did was this wonderful Icarus. You know, he's done one here, but this was a, a much more elegant Icarus, and it was really terrific. And we had it in the entrance of this really posh flat that we were living in, and, and the wallpaper was white with gold fleur-de-lis all over it, because the two interior decorators had done it before us. I mean, it wasn't really our style, and there was this amazing, dramatic Icarus standing against this wall. And um, and Brett came around, and he had a look at it, and he said, 'I'd just paint that wall if I were you, mate, so, so it looks a bit like the Old Masters standing—destroying his Old Master piece with that wallpaper.' He said, 'I think you should paint it white.' So we did. And it was smart, you know, because, I mean, it was a wonderful piece of sculpture, but it just didn't look right there, you know, there was this kind of...

Colin Lanceley Well, he was smart, Brett was.

Kay Lanceley Yeah, he was very smart.

Colin Lanceley Very smart. It wasn't just kind of street manners and hip talk. I mean, he had all that as well, but, but he had... And how can a funeral do justice to that? That's the living breath of somebody, you know, it's just not there anymore. That's just cut off.

Sandra McGrath Do you think everyone felt self-conscious? I would have thought...

Colin Lanceley Yeah, well that's another thing about funerals, everyone feels self-conscious, too.

Kay Lanceley I just felt like an intruder or something, I don't know. Couldn't bear it.

Sandra McGrath Now, one of the nice things was seeing Martin Sharp there. I always just loved Martin Sharp. I've been seeing quite a bit of him. He's been helping me with these old tapes and things. I can go back 30 years and some of them are a bit awkward and don't tell him what I'm

Colin Lanceley doing. No, they might be swooped upon.

Sandra McGrath No, they won't tell him. But he's just, it's been like being... I go there in the afternoons to work on this and talk to him and whatnot. See Greg, there's There's a whole bunch of them working there. It's like a sort of commune. It's got this wonderful feeling. I really love being there. The fire's going, and Greg Weight's there doing photography. He's got David there to do the film. The film, of course, is always downhill! But so impressive. But I just really love Martin. He told me, he said to me, 'Well, now you know what it's like.' And I said, 'What do you mean?' 'In the shadows of the river.' But he said, 'Now you have your obsession.' And I thought, 'God, 20 years of Brett Whiteley!' 20 years and I've got this ahead of me! The city is a darker place, there's no question about that. It sounds like a cliché, but it really is a darker place. All right, well Sandra especially will go. And thank you all.