Christo

Sandra McGrath Interview with Christo at Little Bay, test 0144, walk. Describe this gully for me, please.

Christo Rocks and junk, [laughter] pipes, and a bit of water.

Sandra McGrath Is it working?

Christo Look! I feel the old...

Sandra McGrath How are you?

Christo Good.

Sandra McGrath Good. This is how rock fishermen get wiped out.

Christo Uh-oh.

Sandra McGrath What's it like being back?

Christo Beautiful.

Sandra McGrath Beautiful.

Christo No, look... Now I understand it's so beautiful, the things. Look at the water...

Subject Can you just kneel down a bit, right here?

Christo Right here?

Subject Yeah, kneel down for me.

Christo Right here?

Subject Thanks.

Sandra McGrath Is this the way you remembered it? Is this the way you remembered it nine years later?

Christo No, I... You know, I... that was so big. And now I understand it's very big. I don't remember that it was so big, you know, the space and the height.

Sandra McGrath The color, remember the same?

Christo The color, yes. It's really the color.

Sandra McGrath In your mind...

Christo I remember that. No, we really start... I think we start right here.

Sandra McGrath Yes, that's what John said. You started right here.

Christo In the middle, yeah.

Sandra McGrath It's very funny when you come back to something like this. In your mind, now it has diminished over the years?

Christo Is that okay? Is enough? Is enough? Or more?

Subject Uh, can I just get you in another spot, please?

Christo Okay.

Sandra McGrath You're very kind.

Christo Oh, falling on the rocks.

Subject I try to shoot a little bit more of that, the whole line.

Christo Up there.

Sandra McGrath Oh, look up here! Makes me want to be a cameraman. Doug, I'm very jealous that you-- I'm not a camera person right now. Give me some thoughts as he's photographing you.

Christo Hah, I cannot say. I remember walking underneath. Imagine, that is the rock from the project. You see the rock from the project in the back?

Sandra McGrath Oh my god! Yes!

Christo Yes. That's the rock from the project.

Sandra McGrath Isn't that extraordinary!

Christo And because it was walking underneath, you know, the fabric was coming down, but there was room, and it was walking underneath between the fabric and the rock. Brian, you see the rock from the project? Incredible, incredible.

Sandra McGrath The remains.

Subject Excuse you, look.

Christo Yeah. See, another piece of rope there.

Sandra McGrath And this was the spot it started from? Was it this gully?

Christo No, we start in the middle. Now we are in the middle. In the middle, and we were going simultaneously um to to from the gully to the north, uh south and north.

Sandra McGrath Tell me, how was this started in the beginning, this project, this particular spot located?

Christo Uh, I think John, he will tell give you more information. But John was going to find several different locations. There was uh... we tried to rent this land from the uh state first, you know, from the governmental agency, thinking perhaps they would give us more chance that they own or they have rights in some portion of the coastline. And there was very disappointing, you know, it was very hard to uh to go through the through the process of asking permits from the governmental agencies, like the Minister of Lands. I remember John wrote letters to the Minister of Lands. Finally, they would suggest that we should try to talk to the private people or private corporations, perhaps they who have jurisdiction on some part of uh around the coast. And I don't know how John located-- I think someone told John-- I don't know how, John, if you got the address of Prince Henry Hospital? Who tell you that?

John Kaldor It was just a matter of trial and error. You know, I went around all around the coastline and I just came through here.

Christo Did somebody tell you this belongs to the Prince Henry Hospital?

John Kaldor I found out, yeah.

Christo Aha.

John Kaldor Because all the state and the governmental people, they all knocked us back. So it was only-- it was only luck, you know.

Sandra McGrath But how was it the idea of a coastline rather than a building occurred?

John Kaldor No, that was Christo's idea.

Sandra McGrath Why was the coastline...?

Christo For me it was, you know, the project was to to make a so-called uh terrestrial package, or packing of the land. But it was very important to start when the land starts, and the land starts from the zero altitude, or near the water. We needed like from where the earth virtually start to start from some place, and that we needed the water and land. And this is why there was they always a proposal, the first proposal was the wrapping of coastline. Then there was like wrapping only inside of land, some, I don't know, some place like covering. And also there is in uh I remember I was telling the um John that we need not only quite flat land, but the land where they can have the low, like here, but also climbing rocks. Like here is about 85 feet high, and coming down there is very low, about only four near the beach, you know. The extension was from that point to the sandy beach down to the um Little Bay. And uh give that different variety of of uh physical, you know, forms, volumes: some very flat portions, some very steep rocks. And uh I remember when we very simply I gave the uh uh drawings to John that we should sew on the fabric in a large pieces, because was thinking we cannot connect it together only the normal width. The width is about 150 inches, I think, was coming the width. And Bob Curtis and his factory sew of 200 feet by 300 to 400 feet length of rolls of fabric, or longer, I think 600 feet some of the rolls. And we had these two rolls, we bring in down, and uh there was a Major Melville from the uh uh Australian Army, he was working for us, former major. He was uh organizing the things to tell now how to start the packing, and I don't know how we started the packing, I think I don't know...

Sandra McGrath This major you were talking to, the major from the army?

Christo Yeah, he was the he was like...

John Kaldor He was supposedly in charge of the project in the beginning, but he was not very um, how should I say, not very suited for it, so...

Christo No, he was He left after a while, but uh we hired him to be in charge of all the people and in charge of the construction.

Sandra McGrath What was his name?

Christo Melville.

John Kaldor Major Melville.

Sandra McGrath Major Melville.

John Kaldor Melville, Melville.

Sandra McGrath Major Melville. He must have been staggered by that job.

Christo Yeah, yeah. And of course, I remember there was the two rolls unrolled...

John Kaldor We started here.

Christo Yes, just here. Yeah, we unrolled these two rolls, and we don't know what to do. And I think we unrolled the rolls, we should try to secure them. And that is the reason we were needed uh uh thoughts. Unfortunately, already before that, John was thinking that we cannot secure the ropes with not only around the rocks, because the rocks is not enough, the rope will sweep down and will not attach well. And we...

John Kaldor Yeah, we had these guns to shoot in the um Ramset guns.

Christo Ramset guns. Yeah, this Okay. The rope is secured there, you know? That is...

John Kaldor Still secured after nine years.

Sandra McGrath Ooh. You want to get a picture of Christo against that rock with the rope that's still there?

Subject Never see it.

Sandra McGrath Never see it, okay.

Subject It's not a good photo.

Sandra McGrath No, okay, cool.

Christo No, but this is very nice.

Subject It's going to be too low down.

Christo This is beautiful.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Christo And that's the... And I remember, there was the more and more we understand that the very important is to secure the fabric sewn, attached right away. And I remember the second when the wind came, we lost a lot of of material only because we were too excited to unroll so much fabric with not enough uh securing with rope. But the securing with rope was a very tedious job, you know. It was pulling ropes, attaching with Ramset gun. On the vertical part we have about 16 local rock climbers who was doing all that job. That job was done by rock climbers who descended with the ropes, and they had this special Ramset guns and they were doing the the cliffs part. On on the flat side, there was the work is done by the workers, you know, by the students.

Sandra McGrath How many rock climbers did you use?

Christo 16.

Sandra McGrath 60 or 16?

Christo 16, 1-6.

Sandra McGrath 16.

Christo We had average about 80 people, then the largest portion, the special day, we have about 180 people.

Sandra McGrath And the major in charge of it all.

Christo Yeah, there was, you know, there was enormously important tele- communication, you know. There was a very hard without surf to know uh when the, you know, the fabric, like in this big cliff, the fabric was up top on the cliff, and there was unrolling these huge pieces of fabric. And down there with the uh control wi- ropes, the people were pulling. And of course, it's very hard to shout from the top.

John Kaldor They couldn't hear.

Christo Yeah.

John Kaldor They had walkie-talkies.

Christo Yeah, and and that is did uh...

Sandra McGrath How long was it up for? I don't remember, John.

John Kaldor I think it's still two weeks.

Christo Two weeks.

John Kaldor Something like that, two weeks.

Christo Took four weeks to install, three weeks.

Sandra McGrath This was was Little Bay the the the first really monumental-scale project you'd done? You'd did?

John Kaldor At that time, yeah.

Sandra McGrath It was, wasn't it?

Christo It was the first... And also the first project what was not really uh um when I wrap the museum before, there was the one object or one thing. And Little Bay was also the very vast. You cannot see it. That's all. You can see it from helicopter or plane, but it was not project you can see it at once, you know. It was not like going and see it. You need to walk and take long time from the beach to the big cliff, and uh and uh all that uh going through all different uh visually seeing, you know. It was not like uh first down here you have completely different view from the top and all different uh uh relation to the...

Sandra McGrath Do you remember the reaction at the time? Because ten years ago, avant-garde art was rather it was something that no one knew much about, except John Kaldor [laughter]. Do you remember the reaction of Sydney public?

Christo There was...

John Kaldor Columns.

Christo There was a There was a continuous column each, I think, once a week or twice a week by the some journalist. You remember who was writing?

John Kaldor He kept uh Little Bay diary uh Little Bay diary, and every day what's happening.

Christo Yeah, he was coming here.

John Kaldor I think it was in the Herald on the second uh page. I had it.

Christo Yeah.

Sandra McGrath What uh But the general reaction, did you get any feedback from the people of the city?

Christo I think uh uh what is John's feeling about it?

John Kaldor I think it was very positive. It was far less um sort of cynical than we expected. Before Christo started,

Christo Yeah.

John Kaldor there was a lot of um you know, knocking of the project and a lot of cartoons in the papers. But once Christo started, I would say 99% of the people were behind him, really. And especially those that came here.

Christo Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Yeah, exactly.

Christo And I remember some Sunday or Saturday, there was like a line of people up there in the cliffs. Was uh You remember how many? When we was We were still working. It was not yet finished.

John Kaldor That's when the biggest crowds were there, when it was almost completed, but not quite.

Christo Yeah.

John Kaldor There were thousands of people.

Christo And you know, it's very brilliant also and uh very reflective. You should see that the material was uh woven polypropylene, and it was like mirroring, uh uh reflecting was. And also the mo- wind was keeping all that uh motion, moving of the of the fabric, like.

John Kaldor Like, you know, the first day we started, and that's I think so typical of, well, Christo's magic, we can put it that way, that we started here the first day, and there were some council people dumping rubbish, and in the beginning said, 'Oh, you you are crazy. What What do you think you're doing?' You know, a typical typical council worker [laughter]. Yeah. And by the end of the day, he was enthusiastic, and he was helping.

Christo [laughter] Yeah, there was, yeah.

John Kaldor And he was saying, 'Do it this way or that way.' And they were really concerned. And I think that's really, I remember that was magic to get these people behind him.

Christo That blow was so beautiful. You know that round rock, and with that things is in this one photography, it's marvelous, that's just covering that that rock, and the the fabric coming down.

Sandra McGrath You must feel as if you know every rock and cliff intimately.

Christo Yeah. And you know, after that, that was so curious walking. When we was walking to that, it was very difficult to uh uh because you don't know where you put it your feet, you know? It was disappear on the on an empty space between one to the next.

Sandra McGrath Tell me, I read something about uh in a in a Art News thing about the influence of your life as a worker in Bulgaria on the state farms along the Orient Express. Is that...

Christo No, it's not It's not that that way. I was I was a student in the Art Academy, and we was obliged to give each Saturday, Sunday, to the communist government our time to go to the kolkhoz, to the cooperative farm, to do all kind of propaganda works of art. And of course, certainly that relates very much to my interest to do project with the people outside of the art system, of the school, like people who have no relation to art, usually. And developed that I am not I'm not disturbed to explain the project to the workers, or to the people who need to be involved with the project, don't need to know if they know about modern art or not. Look this, Sandra! Hi, how are you? Um... Nine years after...

Sandra McGrath Right. Well, there had to be at least one, right?

Christo No, we remove it, that's it, and they cannot... there was a cut by somebody right there.

Sandra McGrath It was what?

Christo There was about 36 miles of rope.

Sandra McGrath How much material was there in the end, that didn't blow away?

Christo About one million, one million square feet.

Sandra McGrath One million square feet. That's a nice round number.

Christo Yeah, over one million, because we used much more material. The surface is one million square feet, but at least we used near one million 200 to 300,000 square feet. Because we covered, you know, the first, second week, when they blow, that portion we cover again with new fabric. We used more, really at least one-third more fabric, or a quarter of material more. But the surface, when you know, when the surveyor was going to research, the surface was around one million square feet of the area we covered.

Sandra McGrath How many technicians did you use on the project?

Christo No, not too many. There was...

Sandra McGrath A surveyor, a major...

Christo There was, no, yeah, the surveyor, no, the major was really organizing, like he was, facilitated, provided the walkie-talkie, all kind of tools. We needed Bob Curtis, the factory, who have about ten people sewing the fabric, but inland, in Sydney. And we have a shack, a little house. We put it when all the materials, tools. You know, there was this attachment was the Ramset gun. They was, there was driven by the, almost like a gun, shooting gun, who is sometimes about eight, uh, three or four inches in in the rock. And that was projected by, through like gun, with powder gun. And to use this type of tools, they need training. Nobody can, not everybody can use it because there were security, there was need to be trained. And there was a training period before that we have about I think 16 Ramset gun, who who uh drived this about 25,000 of these things in. That's gone. That was done on the head, you know. All that was done before, that locating facility, training period. That was done before we really start to move to the site. photos. And also I I do I do several drawings in different locations before finally we see that. This was it. No. The story that I was very interested to do coastline project before I met John.

Sandra McGrath You mean any coastline anywhere?

Christo Yes, I tried to do in California. We never succeeded with permission. 1968, late '67, the first drawings.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I understand.

Christo And of course when I met John in '68, and we started to talk with John that perhaps I would come to Australia by some invitation like to talk, like today. I tell to John I would not like to talk, I would love to do that project, an idea, a great opportunity because the coast, the Australia have so much coastline. It's not like neat country have no coastline, it's got I don't know how many miles, thousand of miles of coastline. I think there at least chance that out of this thousand of miles coastline they have possibility to located few miles or one mile or two miles portion then we can work uh to do that project. And we was looking these drawings in my studio in New York, and John started with that, "Let me think about." And and he started to go through all that trouble. But that was the starting with the coast idea. There was never another. I do proposal, no, I do drawings for wrapping of a bridge and things like that in Sydney, but that was basically to regenerate money, you know, there are some collages of wrapping the Opera House, things like that, but that was to uh because all the time was paying by the drawings and sketches, we needed to sell some of these collages and drawings to the through the Central Street. I think it's totally really near around $120,000.

Sandra McGrath the bridge, though? That was just... No, no, that was a drawing, yeah. Yeah, visual drawing of a of a

Christo imagined project. Yeah, but there was done collages, and we showed some of the collages on the uh Central Street Gallery, at Central Street. Yeah, I remember that. Bulgaria, are they not? Yeah, they still are there. Do you go back there now? No, I cannot, no. I'm a

Sandra McGrath political refugee, I cannot go. Not allowed in. No. And when did you leave exactly, Bulgaria? 1950...

Christo And I'm also Czech. I left Czechoslovakia in early 1957.

Sandra McGrath 1957. Ah, '57. I wasn't sure about that. And you went straight to where from there?

Christo No, I from I from Czechoslovakia I moved to Austria. And I lived about six months in Austria. And after that to uh Switzerland, and I moved arrived in Paris in early '58. I lived six years in Paris until '64. In uh March, February '64, we moved to New York.

Sandra McGrath And New York, do you consider now your home?

Christo I live from '64 in New York.

Sandra McGrath Do you like living in New York?

Christo Very much. We grow there. Our son is gone to school there.

Sandra McGrath I saw your recipe in the Artists' Cookbook, it amused me. That you didn't really eat it all, you ate baby food. Is that true? Did you really live on baby food when you were a baby? I thought it was very funny. Everybody else was being so serious about their recipes. And this said you all ate the child's baby food.

Christo The color of the ocean is so beautiful.

Sandra McGrath The color of the sea is rather nice today, too, isn't it?

Christo I remember that.

Sandra McGrath All right, listen, I'll let you go, because all these people...

Christo Listen, look that! You show that to Jeanne-Claude?

Sandra McGrath It's beautiful.

Christo Hello. I have shorter hair, you know.

Ken Reinhard Yes, shorter hair. No grey.

Christo No, we now have grey hair.

Ken Reinhard It hasn't changed a bit. Same glasses?

Christo Yeah, the same glasses. Yeah, the same glasses, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Let's see the others.

Ken Reinhard The others are the... I just found them in in the book. That that was a... well, it's nice of you. Here we have...

Sandra McGrath It's nice to look at.

Ken Reinhard There there you are.

Christo I was already with my with my arm, you know, I dislocate my shoulder.

Sandra McGrath When did you dislocate your shoulder?

Christo Well, yeah, here we have. There, I was already with my with my arm, you know, I dislocate my shoulder. When did you just take out your shoulder? Up there, down there, on the rocks. Um, uh, I, you know, with the surf, I I

Sandra McGrath was very uh slippery, and I I fall down. Were there many other You said there weren't any

Christo casualties, and you didn't mention that Christo was the only one. No, no, no, no, there was that, no, there was no there was no casualty, but it was the one of the the rock climbers uh moved down That's quite nice, that one. But you told me about pictures you have it when there's the little people, you tell me, in your place, no? Yeah, in my, yes. In your place. I think I have now that pictures from you. Yes, you give me you give me that. It's very empty, and only the

Ken Reinhard top of it, that's right, yeah, that's right. That's a lovely picture. Yes, that's um... It looks like a huge mountain of snow, an ice cap.

Sandra McGrath Why did you choose up to It was actually a beige color. Yeah, very nice. It was like It's sort of the color of the rock.

Christo It's a little greenish, but it's the straw. It's the straw color. And the rocks are very nice, it's blended.

Ken Reinhard It's a bit like this color.

Christo Yeah. But much more silky. If you ask me, you see very well that the fabric was woven. Somebody asked me if the material was... Look how the...

Sandra McGrath The material was very much... where we are woven, look, this is the close-up. How did you anchor it in the water without the wave

Christo No, they were secure. No, there was not anchored in the water, it was secure, secure like with continuous with the rock all around, to the low tide, to the high tide line. Out to the high tide, yeah. It was and

Ken Reinhard and and end in the high tide line. Hello, Channing. Johnny! I think this is the appropriate spot

Sandra McGrath for the picnic underneath the rock here with the Look up there, Channy. Our picnic thing is in the

Ken Reinhard I didn't think that was still done with all that Well, they're probably still building it up. Just happens we have a few roll of fabrics.

Sandra McGrath You still got to do that fabric?

Ken Reinhard I would rather believe we couldn't have kept it. This fabric is very similar to what a bale of wool is put in.

Sandra McGrath Was that a deliberate sort of thing, to make it like the old Aussie bale of wool? Or was it just convenient?

Ken Reinhard No, no, it's screen printed.

Sandra McGrath Oh, but this wasn't the actual material?

Ken Reinhard Yeah, this is the actual material. We used the material to send the invitation out.

Sandra McGrath It's actually a lovely invitation, isn't it?

Ken Reinhard Mmm, yeah.

Sandra McGrath What we all forget to do, and we shouldn't, is to put the year on it. It hasn't got the year, and we've been doing this now for ages, the sculptors, trying to remember to put 1978 on holy catalogues. Otherwise you've got something like that in the right year.

Man How are you? Hello, Ian.

Ian Milliss Hello. Oh, my god.

Sandra McGrath Have a look at it, do you remember all those yards?

Ian Milliss They couldn't be cut. It had to be done The only way to cut it was to do it with with a red-hot iron. Oh, really? Because it has to fuse, otherwise it would have raveled. No trouble at all. It took about four days to cut up 600 invitations out of the fabric.

Sandra McGrath Oh, well, it was all worth it, wasn't it? I've probably still got one too, if you know what I mean.

Ken Reinhard I've got a couple. I've got about four left. Oh, that is really something.

Man I've still got one of those coming too.

Woman How did you find yours?

Sandra McGrath Oh, you all are too much. Somebody offered me money for it once and I said, "I'm not going to sell it."

Ken Reinhard Whose dog? Yours?

Man Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Well, I think the place...

Man What have I done?

Sandra McGrath This is the place to be, it's right up under here, isn't it? You could get nice and drunk up under here.

Christo John, here is very protected.

Sandra McGrath This is lovely up in here.

Christo Where I can bring the tin can, John?

John Kaldor It is up here.

Sandra McGrath Well, this is a...

Ken Reinhard Yes, there's place to be.

Sandra McGrath Well, you haven't seen one, though?

Terry Measham Yes.

Sandra McGrath And you never saw a fairy penguin burrowing underneath Christo's?

Terry Measham No.

Ken Reinhard But people used to walk, it was marvellous underneath.

Terry Measham To go underneath it.

Sandra McGrath Oh, I never did that.

Ken Reinhard Because you'd look up and it was all...

Sandra McGrath Filled with light.

Ken Reinhard Yeah, and shimmering and waving and... Really beautiful.

Sandra McGrath This is going to be one of those difficult picnics where everyone's going to be half on top and underneath.

Ken Reinhard There's one coming... Somebody's coming running around the corner right now. I forgot the name of my own photographer. I've got a terrible one.

Terry Measham Is he your photographer?

Ken Reinhard No, he's a stranger.

Sandra McGrath He's the Australian photographer.

Ken Reinhard Which one?

Sandra McGrath The blonde boy there.

Ken Reinhard I have to get you to go introduce yourself so I can remember his name exactly. I think it's Doug Drummond. I think that's John...

Sandra McGrath And when you stand on the corner, and see it both ways, it's so neat.

Christo With the full speed of the work, the wind was blowing, but hot. Channy is arriving with some oysters, with the white wine, and tell, "Why don't stop? Why don't have a little bit of picnic?" Remember that picnic down...

Sandra McGrath We did have it down there.

Christo Down, down there.

Ken Reinhard The one we had...

Sandra McGrath It was up there. It was a beautiful one down there.

Ken Reinhard Actually, I've got the photographs that Shilpa and Kendra gave me of that. And I've been trying to find them for the last five years. But I think they're up around there.

Christo It was to see in the film, in the film of... this 28-minute film of... who is arriving to John Kaldor of the Little Bay.

Ken Reinhard This is the part you've got.

Sandra McGrath Is there?

Christo Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Oh, that's good. John, give it to Jonathan over here. Here we are.

Man Thank you.

Sandra McGrath What time of year was it, actually?

Christo October.

Sandra McGrath October.

Man October.

Christo Yeah.

Ken Reinhard October, it was very... There was one really amazing day when there was a gale out here, and half the place got shredded, and everything was blowing away and taking off and cars were nearly rolling over.

Sandra McGrath The wind must have been the biggest problem here, actually.

Man We're at the end, you've been doing such a good job. Do you have another one? Thank you.

Sandra McGrath I don't know if one can feel such an intimate thing, I don't know if you can feel an intimate picnic when you know that every mouthful has got a close-up shot of you sticking a bit of chicken in your mouth.

John Kaldor Yeah, he's very nice, Cardiff.

Speaker More paranoid of that camera.

Sandra McGrath He's probably so used to...

Speaker I think we have an open bottle somewhere.

Sandra McGrath Cardiff, that's good.

Speaker they live happily ever after. Very John

Christo You don't like to have a little bit ready? Please, please come join us and, uh, stay, uh—

Jeanne-Claude Why don't you sit down?

Christo No, I, I like to sit down. Uh, John, can you give me one paper cup? A little more.

Sandra McGrath John, maybe you should make a toast. I didn't hear it! What did you say? Swept— Your sound was swept away by the waves.

Christo That would be, uh, each decade we do it again.

Sandra McGrath Thank you.

Speaker No, I just want to taste this.

Sandra McGrath Christo, what is it like being back here on the rock?

Christo It's very difficult. One thing, when you arrive to begin, like the first time I find it so big, you know, I'm just coming down to the cliffs, and all these big cliffs, with 85 feet to do, so much problem and excitement. It's still so big today also.

John Kaldor It's not the best of days today. I remember there were some nasty days when we were doing that, fantastic, and I was furious. But I don't worry, I'm safe.

Christo and all the visitors, and late afternoon the wind came. You know, they were like clouds, like fire being blown up in the sky.

John Kaldor Thousands of dollars' worth of fabric ripping itself to pieces before our eyes.

Speaker I came back a week later and walked right around from the hospital and came right in underneath here. It was beautiful being underneath here with all the—

Christo Underneath, yeah.

Speaker Yeah.

Christo Because we was walking underneath. The public was walking underneath.

Speaker Yes, yeah.

John Kaldor It was very windy.

Christo It was a very windy day. Yeah, very, very windy. And after the wind calmed down quick, there was enough history, there was enough, there was enough to destroy the newspaper. Don't play with Mother Nature, it's not nice to play with Mother Nature.

Sandra McGrath Can I see the Sydney Morning Herald described your work as the punning pen? I think that was it.

Christo What?

Sandra McGrath I'm sure it was. Punning pen.

Speaker Punning pen.

Sandra McGrath Because the rest of it was puns.

Speaker It was packed with puns.

Sandra McGrath Maybe it wasn't punning pen. Maybe it was.

Speaker Maybe it was.

Sandra McGrath Was it pen? Was one of our adverts positive? You're sure it was the Punning Pen? It was under the picture of Little Bay. Oh yeah, the Sydney Morning Herald, The Punning Pen.

Christo It was the third day, after the press conference on Monday.

Sandra McGrath Yes, The Punning Pen.

Christo There was, there was some very calm— There was a, they were some fishermen, they were very upset. To prove that, we was, they were sitting, they were standing on the rocks, into the very fabric arriving into the rocks, and they were not moving. No, no, no, they were doing it on purpose. That's why I'm yelling, "Please move, because we like to put the fabric." I remember, right down there.

Speaker I may not fish here, but— Could you prepare some of the crackers with pâté for Sandra? I will. Here's the close-up, yeah. Man, I'm hungry. I'll go back up this way. Yes, could you pour Sandra another half a glass, please?

Christo You have to.

Sandra McGrath Yes. Half a glass.

Speaker You don't like to have a drink? Oh yes, delicious. Thank you, thank you.

Sandra McGrath Oh, yes, please. Tablecloth. I think we're all going to have to wash our hands, the ice—

Speaker Why not?

Sandra McGrath Why not? I think, I think you should put your hands in Sydney water again.

Speaker Yeah, very nice of you. There are some little poodles over there. Yeah, little poodles too. They're little legs. Tom, would you not throw them such a distant— He's very intelligent, and please bring reasons. I would not throw it, I know you won't. Only a matter of time before he does. I don't know what you're saying.

Sandra McGrath Carl, would you like a drink? Why can't you write something about the chilling in all that business, Sandra?

Speaker Nice, isn't it? These guys, one of those guys over there, oh yeah, they're quite, quite young, yeah, yeah, but they could have done some sort of decent— Yeah, in this way. Say that they're a washing machine in the gallery, eh? It's good. Doesn't change cars, doesn't really matter. It's ridiculous. Well, you could make that. Yeah, that's right. He does actually hold the rope when he goes behind the car. He's just riding in the car. He doesn't have the whole structure, just a rubber mat. After about the third or fourth time he fell out, I decided he was better off leaving him in the car. They're amazing dogs, they're just incredibly intelligent. It's very well-mannered. I was going to say, you've got a normal dog. Well, they're big dogs. Yeah. There's a limit to how big a dog is. You can still live in your own house. That's the way to win friends and influence people. The funny thing is it wasn't just here, it actually went all the way to that beach. The wrap-up. which is about half a mile away. Yeah, right around the corner. all the way along. Yeah, it was. I remember

Christo You remember, we need to have, one day or two times we need to have another one because there was coming all these women, 80-year-old, with all these trousers, ah, there was—

Speaker Milwer?

Jeanne-Claude Remember what?

Christo there was 50 people more, uh, 150 people more. And the only way to have them, was one or two hours when they were performing this, but they were swimming, half of them were swimming.

Speaker Yeah. We didn't quite know what it was all about. That would be funny. There were quite a few, quite a lot of them wandering around, they weren't here all the time, just on certain days. No, there was one or two people who were actually hired just to stay here all the time to keep an eye on it. Are you sure? Yeah, I'm sure of that. The rest of the boys organised themselves. Yeah, he was just hired to just keep an eye on all the stuff.

Sandra McGrath Was that Major Melville?

John Kaldor No, Major Melville was a bit of a joke. No.

Sandra McGrath Who was he?

John Kaldor He had, he had one of those very tiny little red cars.

Sandra McGrath Was he an old man?

John Kaldor Oh, he was here most of the time, but he was just a joke, you know. He lasted about three days, four days. You remember how he was taking it very seriously at all.

Christo And he, he was, you know, he was a terrible position during the war. He was in that, he was that, uh, taking the corpse of the killed soldier.

Sandra McGrath What?

Christo You remember, that was his position? He was not, he was major of the Syrian army, but he was not the soldier of battle, but he was— He was already in the Corps of the killed soldiers.

Sandra McGrath What?

Christo Yes, that was his job, I remember very well.

Sandra McGrath What?

Christo Yes, he was, he was—

Jeanne-Claude I thought he was part of the parliament.

Christo Corps of Engineer, who was, who was, who was putting the, the, the killed soldiers. You don't remember that? Ah, I remember. Of course it was that time, but I remember that, because he was on the way very, because we were asking, but Mr. Melville, he was really fight the Japanese, and he was saying, "No, we were only digging graves for the corps."

John Kaldor It was very funny. He expects things to run like the army, and in fact it was a perfect example of self-managed chaos, with everybody doing whatever they wanted to do, but somehow or other managing to get it all done. He must have had a terrible problem.

Christo No, no, no, no, no. I am definitely sure that he was very upset.

Jeanne-Claude You said what, chaos?

John Kaldor Self-managed chaos, yeah.

Christo He was very upset. No, upset. And I remember the first day when he come, he tell to John Claude, "Mrs. Christo, we have 60 people ready to die." John, nobody asked him to die, you know! This is today, this is today. Ready to die! And he have he have this radio, he call he supplies military radio, uh, uh,

Sandra McGrath walkie-talkie.

John Kaldor The bloke who was really good was this Belgian rigger. I'm not quite sure, I can't remember his name.

Christo I don't know, I think, I don't know, I know him— And he was, he was going with shorts, British shorts,

John Kaldor Army shorts.

Christo Yeah, but, exactly. But you know, it's very unpleasant, unpleasant to walk in the, in the rocks with shorts, you know, it was completely stupid, though.

Sandra McGrath Plastic shorts.

Christo It would destroy— destroy his legs, but he, he wanted to show that he's a tough guy, you know. He was wearing— And, and he had that beret. He had that beret.

John Kaldor Beret, yeah.

Christo Because with these rocks you need to have a fence, right?

Sandra McGrath What was the funniest thing that happened, if there was one?

Speaker I was going to take those things over to your place...

Sandra McGrath Yeah, what was the funniest thing that happened?

Christo There was also there, except some some motorcyclist happened, remember? And there was a fire.

Sandra McGrath No, it was the garbage.

Speaker The garbage at the top caught fire.

Christo Fire, and and the newspaper was telling the Little Bay is in fire.

Sandra McGrath How did it catch fire?

Christo No, they just spontaneous fire. The garbage, yes.

Speaker The, they, uh, loves... The garbage, they're...

Christo ...with the mattresses, with the wood.

Speaker No, it just burns, just catches fire on its own, it does. Because it rots down, yeah, the heat starts to...

Sandra McGrath What's all this bit about fairy pigeons?

Speaker Oh, there's a real...

Christo Fairy penguins, no.

Speaker Bitch, yeah, fairy penguins.

Sandra McGrath Vincent Serventy.

Speaker I've never seen one here. So, I didn't ever see it. No, I didn't ever saw one either. Well, they're not out there right now, that's for sure. There had been so many on on TV saying that we were going to destroy them, destroy the fairy penguins.

Christo No, but I tell you, like, after I came back to the States, there was a scientist from Boston who were very upset with that project. Saying that the project disturb the birds around the rocks. No matter how short was the project, the birds would be psychologically disoriented. By that fabric moving, you know, they cannot come.

Speaker Oh, it was really strong. Ah, but that's not true, I mean, all the birds... There's a whole campaign. ...just go and land around the corner, you know. You know, it doesn't make any difference. Well, it's just, it's very interesting, in the society where they're busily destroying nature as much as they can,

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Speaker they should suddenly...

Christo No, but that was a, that was all before we do the project was all kind of, before we arrived... ...before we arrived, there was all kind of...

Speaker So, it was just the garbage.

Christo The funniest thing was like that: one middle of the week, I think second week, there was the sick man arriving in his own bed. And he in the morning, 8 o'clock in the morning, with the bed was delivered at the front of Prince of Prince of Prince Henry Hospital entrance. And the bed, the bed was there, the man was sitting there. He tell, if the hospital is crazy to be involved with things like that, they should give more money to the poor people staying in the hospital. And and and there was, you know, because they were thinking that hospital was paying for the project.

Sandra McGrath Ah, yes. Did the hospital ever get agree to it? No, hospital agree. After, after the hospital was charging admission, twenty cents.

Speaker Yeah, they started charging admission on the site. I think there was... Yeah, and there were, oh, there was tens of thousands of sightseers after a while. There was a queue all the time.

Sandra McGrath How many sightseers do you think came in? Because I... Oh, I don't know. It was over quite a long period of time, but there was a hell of a lot.

Christo Oh, during the week, the hospital... came through the hospital, most of... That gate. No, no, no, that gate. That gate, yeah. Exactly. And not not before the project was finished.

Sandra McGrath You've nearly finished the prawn. How about that plate down there?

Male speaker Where's the bar? I won't make the mistake of shaking it up again.

Sandra McGrath So going back just for a minute to that sort of scale thing, you see it was the first time.

Christo But also the, not only the scale, but the long process of the very moment that John was involved with finding the place. It's like a long way of putting together many things, like finding the land, finding the different types of people, patiently waiting for the advice, or putting all this, which is not usually in the normal sculptor's way, no, because you immediately go to the steel man or to the man who is doing this, and it's surveying the land, looking the weather report, listing how to secure this 36-mile rope, like finding the fabric also. We were we were not sure what kind of plastic or artificial material we're using until the moment John discovered this erosion control mesh, which was which was the material used by the farmers to cover the to protect the good earth, you know. It was not done for us, that material. The right word is erosion control mesh, which was woven that they were putting over the earth, and the vegetables can grow through that. Like that, because it's so slippery, they can push the the fibers, they can grow through the That was all.

Sandra McGrath No, no.

Male speaker No, this really was only for that purpose, then. Yeah, but now they make these or similar stuff.

Christo Yeah, but but much more tighter. That is a very like a straw, um, No, to stop wind erosion. Wind erosion, like it's used in the Philippines, in Japan, when they cover the large portion of earth, they cover wrapping, really, they wrap the earth when you have the soil with the fertilization, and after that, the the all this different vegetable grow through that, and the things remaining in the soil, but keep the soil stronger that they will not swept by the strong winds, the typhoons and the strong winds on the ocean. And all that was discovered much later. Like when the first drawings was came, they was I was not aware what kind of fabric we used. And that is the way how the project was working, that he was taking the material who should be used. We was stupid to use material which had not that quality, to be really like wrapping the land. And that material was done to wrap wrap the land.

Sandra McGrath Did you ever think that you were never going to finish? Did you ever think the winds or the rain were going to make it impossible to finish?

Christo No, we would never think this. The only thing, we were too slow. I remember after the first week we have this fateful meeting in the hills there, and if we don't have more people we'll never finish the things. It was it was like tedious job, like when we unrolled the first two rolls down there, and the the rolls was quite heavy, you know, like 500 meters, so heavy to bring it down. I tell John, but it would be endless, you know. There are hundreds of rolls to be unrolled. If the we can put only two rolls on one day, then we'll never finish the job. That was

Male speaker And there was also a thing after that night when a whole lot of it got ripped to shreds and had to be redone.

Christo And in the very first time, all that cliff,

Male speaker The whole thing was torn, they were just ripped off.

Christo and we need to sew the fabric, find the fabric, and Bob Curtis, that was very nice, he was sewing 24 hours on the clock, and he was delivering the material.

Female speaker The things you do for nothing. Look, we ate the picnic for nothing. It happened. Quite magic. I didn't do a thing. You didn't do a thing? She wasn't even there. That's not bad.

Christo No, they was we were worried also about the about the accidents, remember, that somebody can fell. When the material was covering the rocks, it became very treacherous, you know, and there were very young people and we should tell them to care, because the between two rocks they were empty, and

Male speaker They can fall through the fabric, eh?

Christo disappear, you know, like you walk and suddenly a man completely disappear, he's he's sitting between, like in the hammock, you know.

Female speaker An American student.

Christo And also the, you know, all kinds of things. We were worried about that they would get hurt. Also the public, that the public would continue walking on the top, and it was slippery, all kinds of things. And that was not, uh, uh, it was not impossible to overcome, but...

Female speaker Was it the most dangerous part of it?

Christo No, no, no, the most dangerous was Valley Curtain. It's so dangerous.

Female speaker Valley Curtain. Was this the second?

Christo And the second one, it was incredible. There was there was so much

Male speaker It was dangerous because of the amateurs involved.

Christo Valley Curtain was the cables, the force, the power. It's enormous, you know. There was the

Female speaker Why would Valley Curtain be more, uh, dangerous than this one?

Christo It was 180 feet high, you know, and it's a huge, massive block.

Female speaker Yes, an engineering thing.

Christo It was 180 feet high,

Female speaker Yeah.

Christo and it's suspended about 1,500 feet across, and a very huge surface of material is like a giant reach. And, of course, uh, we were so naive to, uh, the company we hired would send us the lousiest engineers, the lousiest machinery, because we were a very small small job to the very big company. There was the there was this incredible thing like there was this cable, two, 3 inches diameter, 1,500 feet long, it was about 26 tons, was lifted only by cheap come-alongs, because the company was not giving good tools, and they were losing this cable up to 360 feet above the ground, and falling that cable on the soil, and nobody was killed. It is a madness. And we fired that company second year, but it was a complete madness, total madness, and I think that there was really miracle that nobody was killed.

Female speaker That was from the engineer's point of view.

Christo No, that's not that's not not engineer's point. It's not It's only mechanics, only some some, uh, responsibility of the project. It's not really engineering. Everybody know how to put cable. That time was not incredible invention. It's only that our we were stung by this company, who's the biggest company in the world, who makes, uh, that very little job, our work was very small for them, and they were sending the lousiest workers, the lousiest tools, machinery, uh, not enough, sufficient. This is why the first year we had this catastrophe, we lost all the curtains in the snow, in the wind. Really, that was, uh, uh, And they blackmailed us that if we tell the press that the thing was their failure, they would do that we never get the permission for the next year.

Female speaker Who said that?

Christo The company, Morrison-Knudsen.

Female speaker How could they say that they could blackmail us?

Christo No, when we lost the curtain, when they lost the curtain, there was the media there, the television, the newspaper. The next morning, And, of course, uh uh when the thing was broken, they asked us to they asked us to uh uh we was obliged to make some press press conference to say why the project was not going, what's up. And they warned us that if we tell that it's their failure, their mistake, they will do that when we never get permission for the next year doing the project.

Female speaker You're going to give the sheep to Chris? They're not going to go.

Christo Oh no, I ate enough sheep.

Female speaker You ate enough? Yes, the dog wants it now. Yes, that's for your dog afterwards.

Male speaker The bad eye.

Christo Very chic dog.

Female speaker Watch out, Christo, he wants your prune. He likes prunes? Yeah, he does. Even with the stone?

Male speaker He'll spit it away, eh? I don't think he'll eat one.

Sandra McGrath So next to Valley, the Valley Curtain, this was that big stretch Stop, dog. Where did you get the mountain climbers from?

Christo Mountain climbers? I don't know.

Sandra McGrath From here?

Christo Yeah, from Sydney. There was the No, there was a group, a amateur, a club, I think it was a club.

Male speaker Yeah, they were a club.

Christo They're a club who who was mountain Yeah, Sydney mountain climbers. And I remember we got to Sydney, and asked them if they'd like to work for us. There was 16 of them. There was very, very fun for them. Not mixed with us, because they had these fantastic belts and ropes. No, but really they were the superior group.

Male speaker They were the elite.

Christo The elite, yeah. They're the elite, you know, remember?

Male speaker They used to they used to sort of stick to themselves. They'd talk to each other.

Christo Yeah. Yeah, they were not mixed with us.

Sandra McGrath Don't you think it was a bit moot that they should even be carrying material over the rocks, because they...

Christo I don't think they'd ignore material. There was not, they was always trying to

Male speaker They'd spend all their time hanging off the side of the cliff, doing that.

Christo Yeah, they They was It was quite complicated job to hang, you know. They had special ropes and special attachments. They was rolling these things, and they was preparing this thing in the heads. And to unroll Really, that I don't think that can be attached by the normal way. That should be done by real climbers, that hanging rocks. Of course, they're another thing: to shooting with these guns. That's why it's special training. Actually, we cannot give permission to anybody to shoot with these guns.

Female speaker Can we take away the empty boxes?

Christo They were kind of training or security that they were training fast.

Female speaker Can we leave this here or you want these people to take away? We don't want to leave anything behind that shouldn't be here. I'll take that one. Yeah, I'll take that. Oh, that's heavy. What are those guns called?

Christo Ramset gun.

Female speaker And this is all rubbish?

Christo Ramset gun. Ramset.

Female speaker Yeah.

Male speaker May I have a straw?

Female speaker Thank you, dear. I have a problem here. I'm not sure I can get up. That's my basic problem. Lovely to meet you. Fine. Thank you for letting me... Beginners for running, but now they've got this black wash, uh, something. Yes, I know. I think it's a good idea, though. Greetings to all the millions of people! Thank you very much. Lovely seeing you. It was lovely. Bye-bye. Consuela made that the other night. I was there every year, yeah, but I didn't drink. I think she does a good job. When she just comes to help. It's Tartare. She's better than a dinner. I've had about five of them. I've only drank a few sips of each.

Male speaker All right. All right.

Female speaker I have another cigarette, yeah? Fine. All right. I bet you've got hair on your head. Can I have a picture with you? Yes. Thank you. Yeah. I thought they'd run out of room for this. Where's the impostor? The dog wants you to chew through that one. Bye, everybody. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Good to meet you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Here, look. All right. Take that down for these foods. Take another down for the Everybody's taking their Good luck. Good luck. Goodbye, thank you very much. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Jeanne-Claude Okay, are you ready? Yep, take the bag.

Christo Nothing.

Speaker Before nine years, that was cool. Ciao. Anyone wishes to say good on you too.

Sandra McGrath I love... I love your coat. Are you nervous?

Jeanne-Claude Nervous? I'm going in the back straight away, and let...

Sandra McGrath Oh, no, I've got to drive.

Speaker You're going to drive, Sandra?

Sandra McGrath It's a straight road back to the...

Speaker Well, it's done that way. Well, the big one is after, and we're being tape recorded right now. Turn the mic off. Bye-bye.

Jeanne-Claude Bye-bye, thank you again for your help. All of you. Bye-bye.

Speaker Bye-bye. Drive you all way, all way, you won't get up here.

Sandra McGrath I think the tape motor's still merrily zipping along in the bag.

Speaker Didn't know what kind of noises might come out of your bag, hey?

Sandra McGrath Oh, let me take that coat off. Can't stand the weight, I'm exhausted.