Arthur Boyd

Sandra McGrath She's got, I think, the Merioogans.

Arthur Boyd I think the making of the picture's an issue. Why don't we, what what did you put the, the ones without a, a name on them?

Sandra McGrath I just put them with the rest, because there are very few without a name, so...

Arthur Boyd Well, why don't we put them apart because it's the one...

Sandra McGrath I don't want to put a name on them so I can look at the pictures without...

Arthur Boyd I see.

Sandra McGrath The tag will cover them up.

Arthur Boyd Well, where are those... Well, where's that ones I've put down on there?

Sandra McGrath There, don't worry.

Arthur Boyd Are they?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, don't worry, they're for you.

Arthur Boyd Okay, fine.

Sandra McGrath They're for you, I mean it's fine. Now, are any of these going into any of that group, no?

Arthur Boyd I can't tell. What's, what's number 21? Is that Echo on the cover?

Sandra McGrath Um, no, what's number 4? No, oil on board. I don't know the title. Put the landscape ones together and we'll do the allegorical ones now.

Arthur Boyd All right, well that's good. I'll put the names together. There's 20, 21.

Sandra McGrath All right, now first of all, let's just think about it in a sort of overall view, Arthur. In dealing with the Shoalhaven landscapes, you have used certain themes and ideas to allegorise it, which were mainly these.

Arthur Boyd Peter Porter's done a whole, all the poems on Narcissus. Several poems on Narcissus. I worked with him on some of the things. I mean he saw the pictures and then...

Sandra McGrath So, Narcissus, what else?

Arthur Boyd A couple of stories that you've told me in the first place about the flood and the aeroplane. And the flood, and a, a...

Sandra McGrath The Christian symbolism.

Arthur Boyd And one of the Prodigal Son. And that came about because the...

Sandra McGrath Wait, let's just get them listed first, then we'll go about each one of them individually.

Arthur Boyd Prodigal Son.

Sandra McGrath And the crucifixions.

Arthur Boyd And then there was the rose, which was...

Sandra McGrath The symbol of what?

Arthur Boyd Oh, well, that was part of the English coming to Australia.

Sandra McGrath With what?

Arthur Boyd That was part of the English coming to Australia. Which culture? On the other hand...

Sandra McGrath Take this away. And then the other one, the other thing we've used is the swan. How would one define that?

Arthur Boyd Well, that was the black swan, which is the state, you know, actually because they do live on the river. And they're a lot, by the way, they run around very fast, worse than, much more than you see them here. What about pelicans?

Sandra McGrath You haven't used pelicans, have you?

Arthur Boyd Well, I did, I did an etching, a couple of etchings, women and pelicans, which Brisbane University... I don't think they... definitely one of...

Sandra McGrath In this deal? Um, so there was the rose, the crucifixion, the prodigal son, the aeroplane, and Narcissus.

Arthur Boyd And another, and another, well the painting... And a lot the river, which is back, I mean the winding river bit, which you can see from the plateau, the eerie, fright plateau. When you get, when you look from up towards Borie, or Bamarang. You see the, the river makes its snake, winding way, with boulder and netty, dead in the background, a lot of this. Some of the winding allegorical river with the rose in the sky, and the burning book.

Sandra McGrath Wait, wait, here... Let's just start with, can I just have a look at the Narcissus pictures? Why don't you put the look of paper across it? That might just support the inky on the cover. That looks like the Shoalhaven River.

Arthur Boyd Well, that's what, that's why we went there, Arthur. That's right, stick it on the, a white page and then you can look down at it. Well, I mean, I put the white light on the page up there.

Sandra McGrath Here, I'll move this over. Careful, everybody's going to fall off here.

Arthur Boyd Except the genuine ones. Now you can put it like that, see? Well, in the dark, put in the dark, then when you get it...

Sandra McGrath All right, now what is the title of this one? This isn't Narcissus anyway.

Arthur Boyd And I, I've change that, I'll have to come... Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Just because they're, they're there.

Arthur Boyd Shall I hand them all to you? Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Now I don't know which ones you consider the Narcissus ones.

Arthur Boyd Well, they are a lot of them out here. This, no that's not. That is. And that is, and that's, that's four of them. That can't be, on the straight. Okay.

Sandra McGrath Which is, which is lovely, because I've used one of these in the desert book. Yeah.

Arthur Boyd Well that's one here, that's, that's the Birth of Narcissus. We've just kept one down, you know, we'll take that one. That's just the straight one, but that's the Birth of Narcissus, you see?

Sandra McGrath Is this called the Birth of Narcissus? No, wait a minute, I've got, I've got a title on that one.

Arthur Boyd You wonder if, oh, you've got titles?

Sandra McGrath Now where've I got that list? That's just called Narcissus, but do you think the Birth of Narcissus...

Arthur Boyd No, Narcissus is better, but it's, he's there. Now that's also got a, got a name, 14.

Sandra McGrath Shoalhaven River with Rose, Burning Book, and Aeroplane.

Arthur Boyd That might make five... Now, that's it, the bull going down the river on its back, which is what you told me they did in the flood and so forth. And that's, oh, that's it's all, I don't know what that is. That's the, that's the evening star, there somewhere. I don't think it's on... That's just, that was there, and then that should be good, and... Right, now, what are, are you going to do one at a time? What are you going to call that? The, the name? Well, let's leave it, hey?

Sandra McGrath Shoalhaven River with Rose, Narcissus is his name, oh where's the name? 28, 14...

Arthur Boyd Well we don't have to worry about that. They're all five, ah four by five.

Sandra McGrath Fitzroy Falls and Figure in a Cane Chair, that's all known. I think we have to keep the names when they're... Shoalhaven Hill with Trees, that's a funny one for this one. Oh, it couldn't be. No, it's Narcissus, of course.

Arthur Boyd Two wings? It doesn't matter.

Sandra McGrath Narcissus has it, I thought it didn't have it.

Arthur Boyd Now that's okay, those, we, we, there, there's nothing much to do about that, no. Is any that, and that's named?

Sandra McGrath Yeah. He's, he's a Narcissus in each of four, haven't you? Now this one isn't named, number 31.

Arthur Boyd Well, that's just the straight Narcissus with the, there's a couple in the, the, or the lovers, or they're fighting, I don't know which. Cain and Abel, that's right.

Sandra McGrath Narcissus with Cain and Abel?

Arthur Boyd They're, they're rather tiny up the back there, you can't see them.

Sandra McGrath You can't, you won't see them, no. All right. Now... This is, all right, well, so we want to do the Narcissus ones, the Birth of Narcissus.

Arthur Boyd Gee, you all right?

Sandra McGrath Why does, now, yeah, and that's the...

Arthur Boyd What's he called that, what have you, what's that?

Sandra McGrath Skull-headed Creature over Black Creek. Where's Black Creek? Oh, that's the creek is just black. With lovers in the background, isn't it? This is one I've used in the desert book, so I'm a bit loath to use it.

Arthur Boyd Um, well that hasn't been...

Sandra McGrath Okay, well let's just for a minute talk about the Narcissus ones. Why the figure of Nar-, why was the myth of the Narcissus myth interesting to you?

Arthur Boyd Well, it's the, it's the self-absorption, um and the...

Sandra McGrath Do you see it sort of as an artist figure, the Narcissus?

Arthur Boyd Um, no, I saw, no, I saw it was a was a novel, um, it was essentially non-productive, in all aspects. And, um, there's no connection between producing anything, except the self. And you only, you only perpetuate, um... you know, and being that's why he's, he's a little, bit of a sort of, fetus-type thing, on that one where he's... where he's laying, laying out of his name. Where is it? It's 60, 41. That one, no it's now it's actually, it's 20, 28, but see that's the, the... the baby Narcissus, and he's falling over into... into the river. I made it a bit ambiguous where it's come, yeah. But that might, um, I mean that was the idea that, you know, the the circular, non-productive circular emotion of things. Um...

Sandra McGrath Ah, it must be tacky to use words.

Arthur Boyd What's that word? To use... It's fine, no, I love using words, it's just they they don't mean anything.

Sandra McGrath I thought words were not your medium. It was meant to be a really... shit.

Arthur Boyd What, and...

Sandra McGrath Words are your medium, aren't they?

Arthur Boyd No, words are my medium, it's just that they haven't got used to me yet. I don't, I don't know.

Sandra McGrath Some of the best stuff you've ever written, in all your own words.

Arthur Boyd I'm sure it is. Well, wait until someone gets my screed. Yeah.

Sandra McGrath So, by putting Narcissus in the, on the Shoalhaven... ...it makes sense to you, really. Why did you say the one curled up is a baby Narcissus? I don't quite see that.

Arthur Boyd Well, it's his fetus position, see? And he's pink like himself. And the whole, um, these... You know he can't, when he dies and he fixes on himself in the water, he's not even looking at his, at his, at what he's done. He's just still, not looking at his, at anything that might even be a byproduct. He's got his eyes down on the water. And he's not, and he's in the process of falling in, all, as well. Uh, I had, it was a bit more than that.

Sandra McGrath Well, I mean you could have put any amount of mythological figures, or Greek figures, or...

Arthur Boyd ...is the Shoalhaven.

Sandra McGrath Well, there's other Greek figures that have to do with water.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, but it's not self-absorption. It's the, it's the actual, and the painting, the painting itself is the... The painting itself is Narcissus, you know, in that... Well, you take the water, er, and the, the stillness and the reflection, er, those, and also the fact that, er, the rocks, er, and even even the the business associated with Echo. Er, you know how this whole valley, or anywhere you go just about, the noises come back at you. That's why the aeroplanes make, er, make double the noise that they normally make, because they get... ...reverberated off the rocks.

Sandra McGrath What was Echo's relationship with Narcissus?

Arthur Boyd Well, Echo loved him, and, er, er, one in my story... She was in love with him, and he could only love himself.

Sandra McGrath She fell in love with him because she saw him, and he didn't take any notice of her. He just kept on gazing at himself, and she sighed away.

Arthur Boyd Faded away.

Sandra McGrath Faded away, and, er, er, saying his name, I suppose, just watching him.

Arthur Boyd I only know the story, it's the whole cup- couple, er, the couple I know through Lord Nathan.

Sandra McGrath Echo?

Arthur Boyd Yeah, Echo.

Sandra McGrath What did you with Lord Nathan?

Arthur Boyd Through all this...

Sandra McGrath So, Narcissus scene would be a perfect, an interesting thing you'd put in the landscape because of the...

Arthur Boyd Well, more subtle, I say, than than some other, although, I can't see Ajax... ...really. Well, I suppose he'd be quite a good character, but rambling around the hills... ...or Hector...

Sandra McGrath Mars.

Arthur Boyd Or Mars. Well, Mars would be... he wouldn't come from there, you get in, you get in. But I think that the water was essentially the reason for treating it, er, the stillness of the water and, um, that aspect of it. You see, in a way, it's much, although the river gets fierce at times, er, it's much more like, the whole, this lot is much more like Echo and Narcissus, rather than like, like Wagnerian. It's not a Wagnerian river, I mean it is, when it's in flood of course,... ...but it's not like the Rhine, which is always rough. Oh, which... Er, do you think that should offer some, some start for red wine?

Sandra McGrath What are you two up to? Are you drinking?

Arthur Boyd No. Well, yeah, very, very unsolidly.

Sandra McGrath The weather? The weather? The weather? We're getting way behind, aren't we? Just takes time. Oh, I wish we could have a more like that. Well, life isn't perfect. I should have done it.

Arthur Boyd Are you getting more? Would you like me to pour a bit more of this? Have another...

Sandra McGrath Now the other one is the Narcissus... I've got another title of it now, somewhere. Narcissus with Cain and Abel. Do you think that's legitimately Shoalhaven? Where is it? Let's see if we can possibly work it around, as they say, to being what we want it to be. This one doesn't look like Narcissus with Cain and Abel to me. This is not. This is Poet, Orange Tree and Goat.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, that's all. Well, that's a different one.

Sandra McGrath Now, I think we're going to have trouble saying this one.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, that might... you might have trouble with that one. I think you might have to leave that one out.

Sandra McGrath I don't think we can use that one.

Arthur Boyd It's got no...

Sandra McGrath It's really unrelated to it.

Arthur Boyd The orange tree is the only thing that connects it up.

Sandra McGrath The goat, for a start. Now, can we get away with this one?

Arthur Boyd Well, could be sandy part down to the beach.

Sandra McGrath Aha. If you haven't used it before.

Arthur Boyd We'll call it Shoalhaven Heads.

Sandra McGrath Narcissus with Cain and Abel on the Shoalhaven Beach... ...on beach at Shoalhaven, on... on Shoalhaven... on beach at Shoalhaven... on Shoalhaven Beach. I hope we know where to get a picture. Now, do you have any idea of the date or the size of that?

Arthur Boyd Yeah. Um, five... wait a minute, it says, oh no, no, it's what, it's six feet by five feet nine inches. No, I can't give anything more accurate than that, I'll have to put in...

Sandra McGrath Right, and then, um...

Arthur Boyd And the date... Oh, there it is. Excuse me, that's with Cain and Abel. And also, um, you know, if that would be a better one, that's a better one, that's it, so we'll probably have...

Sandra McGrath We've got this one, so let's stick to that. OK.

Arthur Boyd Um, yeah, well the day, this is after that, so the date is... ...it'll be... '79.

Sandra McGrath Now, in this, what's happening besides Cain and Abel? What, tell me about the... Hard to read the details in that. What is that?

Arthur Boyd That's a book. Can't you see the book?

Sandra McGrath I see a book.

Arthur Boyd Yeah. That's the book, that's the shadow of the tree... ...and that's the book, open, and that's only a stump, and that's just this horizon. Did you see that in the book? The shadow's not all that hot, but... ...it's, it's, it's, it's a fairly sparse tree. And there's a blue figure, er, I think it's a very, what's that blue figure, the blue watercolour of Dürer's in the British Museum?

Sandra McGrath By Dürer?

Arthur Boyd By Dürer. Very unusual, and it's, er, you know, some of those early watercolours of Dürer's in the lakes and that? Have you seen them?

Sandra McGrath Yes, I have a few, yes. Not many, though.

Arthur Boyd Um, no, not a lot of them, but this figure is that. I'm pretty sure it's a Dürer, it could be a Mantegna, but it's bound to be a Mantegna or a Dürer, er, that that's hard to duplicate, but still it's just this it's absolutely a sort of cobalt blue. Very, very strong cobalt blue. And that... ...this figure that is placed, er, most unusual for a piece of, a piece of art of juxtaposing, you know, colour. It was obviously very, it was deliberate, it was not accidental. And that struck me as being could could be, also it's a pretty, it was a very arid landscape, as well. It was a good solution to heat, er, for treating him, instead of making the figure red, being hot, he made him blue, you see. You see, if I'd made him a sort of flesh colour...

Sandra McGrath It'd look like he was suntanned.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, it would just have been sort of roasted.

Sandra McGrath Why combine Narcissus and Cain and Abel?

Arthur Boyd More because that's the Cain and Abel was the beginning, you know, Narcissus sort of perpetuated the same, er...

Sandra McGrath One came before the other.

Arthur Boyd ...unproductive, un- unproductive way of behaving. I mean they both they're both...

Sandra McGrath And that was the curse of Cain, so it had to be. Biblical situations in contemporary art.

Arthur Boyd Yeah. Well, the, the, the, the idea, I've painted biblical pictures, pictures from the Bible, since 1940 on, er, various themes, mostly probably the expulsion. And, um, I haven't used this particular one yet, but I've used a lot of Victorian bushy, rocky landscapes in Victoria as a backdrop. Um, for that, for Australian landscape, it seems to lend itself finely to, to the expulsion, in a way. Or Cain and Abel being caught on the edge of Australia. In other words, they're entering, when they're being chucked out of paradise, you don't... ...you don't see paradise, you just see what they're being chucked out of, chucked out into, not of. So, in a way, that's, that was the vision that the early people had of, of paradise, of they being, they'll be kicked out of paradise, which was Europe, or England. And, um, so that's why the Australian landscape seemed to be the fit picture for the expulsion. Now there's a poem in here. Are you all right?

Sandra McGrath I've read some of it. I didn't...

Arthur Boyd Well, one of the good words is that he wrote that after he'd seen some of the pattern left hanging on the face, 90 words, something. Ah, this Eden-wide catastrophe, isn't it? 'To wake out of oneself, the same sun shining, verbless, sleepless, and a day dreamer's self-absorption of a hare on a tapestry, all tapestry, caught in the Eden-wide catastrophe, murder seen down every leafy avenue.' You see, that's

Sandra McGrath What page is that on?

Arthur Boyd Uh, that's the first page of the it's supposed to be... Take the page, it's not numbered, is it? It's a poem. It's about, let's see, second page of 'The Making of a Monster' poem. About three, four...

Sandra McGrath Oh, goody! We got a good one. Oh, I wish we could have these every time. The colour's all right.

Arthur Boyd Yes.

Sandra McGrath What do you want to give him?

Arthur Boyd Did you give him some red? Well, give him that or open it?

Sandra McGrath No, give him some of that. Do you have the white? There's white in it. Which do you prefer? It doesn't matter.

Arthur Boyd Well, if you prefer cold black, cold black to that... Ah, the other cold white, yes.

Sandra McGrath What's this one called, the Prodigal Son Tapestry?

Arthur Boyd Uh, well that it's it's just called 'Prodigal Son'. It goes round the wrong way, I think.

Sandra McGrath Oh, yes.

Arthur Boyd Nice red. Mm. See the gold effects in that red, hey? Sorry, look at the knocking. See, that's all it's all the gold thread from the angel's wing. On the angel's wing. And that angel comes off the back or the top of the, um... This is, well, Where did the angel come from? Yes. Well, it comes out of the the Danaë in the Hermitage, Rembrandt's.

Sandra McGrath It comes out of what? Oh, the Danaë!

Arthur Boyd Yeah. It's clasping his hand, or its hands, uh, and, uh, so I've just, because it's such a marvellous golden image, that I've transferred it to the sky. And in this case you've got a

Sandra McGrath Who did that Danaë? Was that Rembrandt?

Arthur Boyd Rembrandt. Rembrandt. But that, uh, but it's got that, uh, the black shadow system, you know, which if the sun was like that, maybe about 30 feet away from the painting, it has a pretty strong shadow. Mm. Oh, those ones are good. I don't think, I think those ones you came from, uh, they were taken, uh, about a year ago, this. But that, I don't think, they're not bad, that one.

Sandra McGrath How large is that tapestry?

Arthur Boyd Oh, the that's not a tapestry, that's the that's the

Sandra McGrath Painting. We've all lost labels, haven't we?

Arthur Boyd Yeah.

Sandra McGrath I'll put it in that pile. You'll take, you didn't take his fair books, did you?

Arthur Boyd Yeah, yeah.

Sandra McGrath Okay, well, now wait... This is called, it's just called 'The Prodigal Son'?

Arthur Boyd Prodigal Son. I think we'd better have a label on here.

Sandra McGrath Now, size of that?

Arthur Boyd See that rabbit in there? It might come out nicely on this. Beautiful. I love that rabbit.

Sandra McGrath What's the exact size of this painting, Arthur?

Arthur Boyd Uh, that's something I can't tell you.

Sandra McGrath How much approximately?

Arthur Boyd Well, it's approximately that wide, by about that high.

Sandra McGrath And in that measure?

Arthur Boyd Uh, that makes it about 24, a pro- very approximately 24... About 34... by 24... by 20...

Sandra McGrath And it's oil on...?

Arthur Boyd Oil on board. And incidentally, all those all those, um, copper paintings are all most, nearly all of them are stand oil, uh, medium on, uh, on the copper. It's not just straight oil painting.

Sandra McGrath Stand oil's S-T-A-N?

Arthur Boyd S-T-A-N-D, like 'stand'. So,

Sandra McGrath we've got title, we've got size, we've got medium, we've got... What am I missing? Whose collection is it?

Arthur Boyd Uh, well that would have to have in the verses, but, uh, some It belongs The tapestry, I think,

Sandra McGrath Now, we'll have to talk about this, I think.

Arthur Boyd The tapestry belongs, and that, I think, to the National Gallery. They're not National Gallery, the Perth...

Sandra McGrath Western Australian Gallery.

Arthur Boyd The Art Gallery of Western Australia. So,

Sandra McGrath now that has no label. So that can go in the little box. Tell you, you know, half this business, you know half this business about doing these books is being an organiser.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, I know.

Sandra McGrath Yeah, that goes in the box, the box. This one we've done, that can go in the box. 14... 12?

Arthur Boyd Mm? No, that's right. That's 14 inch.

Sandra McGrath You got a lot of work today. You've done ten more than you thought, obviously.

Arthur Boyd Oh, as long as it's all Remember the same size, it's all right.

Sandra McGrath I certainly think we'll come up with our quota. We've got the rose, aeroplane...

Arthur Boyd Mm. There's another same machine, black and white here. Take, oh, you've got...

Sandra McGrath Okay, the meaning of the the rose, we understand, is the planting of English culture, or attempt to, in this wild landscape.

Arthur Boyd It's always floating. It's never never actually all that, but it's sort of always floating, you know. Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Because it's never really planted, you mean?

Arthur Boyd Yeah, what is. And the and the...

Sandra McGrath The car's flying?

Arthur Boyd The only things that are left, you see, in a way, well, that ties up with another one which with the doorway, which I think they should also give you I can't understand. The doorway and the, um, uh, which is in Melbourne now, they should have had that, the doorway with the bomb going off in the on one in the...

Sandra McGrath Yes, I've seen that picture. Where have I seen it? Oh, I saw it in one of these catalogues.

Arthur Boyd Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Now the rose is always floating, the cars, keep going.

Arthur Boyd The rose is always... Well, because it's never the never takes root. Well, it's not the alien culture cannot take root, and if it does, it destroys whatever it touches. It's like exactly lantana, you see. Yeah, did you notice lantana coming along? Well, lantana's a is a garden plant.

Sandra McGrath And the burning book?

Arthur Boyd And the burning book was just another... You know, if they uh if they actually read the book properly, they, uh... they wouldn't be there at all. So, it's kind of to to actually tie it up with with, um, uh, with arriving with...

Sandra McGrath Who wouldn't be there at all?

Arthur Boyd Well, I mean they wouldn't be there... Who's they? Well, the the the white man or the or the European wouldn't be in Australia. I mean, if he if he wouldn't have it would have not left to the blacks, but at least he would have taken a a leaf out of their their own book, and, uh, and treated the landscape with more respect, which again, they do or did... have lost that.

Sandra McGrath Mhm.

Arthur Boyd But, uh, in a way they...

Sandra McGrath And the aeroplane?

Arthur Boyd And the aeroplane, well, that's just a hangover from a bit from a bit of a bit of it came from that hand down the other's another one, the little one you took so much trouble to get, of of... it may be in... that's it there, there. Well you've got to put that down.

Sandra McGrath Oh yes. That's one of the copper ones, isn't it?

Arthur Boyd No, it's not. It's on board. That's the one there, we've got the picture of it. So that's it there.

Sandra McGrath Oh, well, we've got a title of that one. Shall I give you a rest?

Arthur Boyd No, well, yes. Give yourself a rest. Have a drink. Do you like a dry bicky with cheese?

Sandra McGrath No, no, no, nothing.

Arthur Boyd Just to... Has it been going all that time, has it?

Sandra McGrath Mm-hmm, I think so.

Arthur Boyd Whew, that'd be fun listening to that.

Arthur Boyd I'm sure it's much better than the other thing. I think, I really don't know, I think...

Sandra McGrath They're very nice, the sort of security workers.

Arthur Boyd Yes. Yeah.

Sandra McGrath So, 19- when you went back, 19...

Arthur Boyd Yeah, 1975.

Sandra McGrath 1971, you then left London.

Arthur Boyd So you have a drink of wine, thank you. I think I could choose... Yeah, go on. There's nothing left. Okay, the rest is Sandra's. Simon, can you... You can get the other one, tomorrow we'll get it from you. Simon, um, thank you dear.

Sandra McGrath So you went back, and you went back to Canberra?

Arthur Boyd Yeah, went back to Canberra. I painted a lot of pictures of the lawn in Canberra, around the countryside, and some of them in Canberra, and, uh, and, um, but there was, the landscape there was never, even around there, has it got this sort of depth and shadow and hardness, and crispness. And then you see the wooded hills and things around Canberra, I mean, they're very sparsely wooded, and you don't really get a primeval landscape that's around Canberra at all. You get, uh, very open, and you get a hard, in the evening you get quite a hard sort of skyline, uh, and marvellous cloud, the skyline, but you don't, in the landscape itself, you don't get this complexity, uh, uh, of detail and, and sharpness. Or, whatever it is. It's not, it's, it's a, it's a sort of tamed landscape. I think this is about the only untamed landscape that I... really know, really. What I mean, untamed, even though it's been ravaged for cedar and things like that, it's not, uh, it's the rest of it's been left, and, uh, it's extremely quick to regenerate, uh, that is, the initial, secondary or third growth is, um, can spring up very quickly, but it's, uh, I don't know, it takes a, a thousand years to reach the delicate point, I suppose, that it was at when they pulled out the cedar. Uh, but, I prefer, I think now I couldn't really conceive being anywhere else. I mean, I'm so, I can't see, you know, I can't see that I'd find anything that would allow me or, or make me want to make another move, because I haven't, you know, I haven't even scratch-, I feel I haven't scratched the surface of it yet.

Sandra McGrath Well, as Sid said, you've got another 50 years to do it.

Arthur Boyd Thanks. And you've got another, you've got another hundred to write. That's good. Well, I, well that's an awful thing to, you know, you've got that feeling so, but that's what you, you know, do it. I don't, there is a picture here that I think shows it... ...gives you the idea, you know. This is a clear, Melbourne day, you know, around the, around May. Very clear.

Sandra McGrath You might think it's funny...

Arthur Boyd And it is funny. It was done a night when I was about 12, or 15, or 14, no, probably 14. You can see that the light, this sort of, you see that...

Sandra McGrath Haze.

Arthur Boyd that sort of haze, the sky is white. The side of the sky is white and, and very little bit of blue. And the only sharp thing, you get very close things, sort of a little bit of dark. You see, it's all, but you can't, you see that as a sort of general, uh, uh, as a sort of impressionist type

Sandra McGrath The frame.

Arthur Boyd colour. Doesn't it take part, in other words, that colour? You can see how pallid.

Sandra McGrath It's so classic.

Arthur Boyd Well, it's very much European, wasn't it? Yeah, well, it's a European light. Well, that's And of course your eyes are the best when you're 14. You know, or about, perhaps getting up to 17. You're at the height of seeing tonal changes and, and subtle things. Because as you get older your, the, the, whether it's the capacity, uh, that you lose or whether it's, just being, uh, the, the, the physical capability of mixing up paint, it's just, it's very difficult to say. It's, it's just because it's such a, you know, it's like, it's like uh, you know, someone saying, 'I see a certain colour.' I mean, there's absolutely the way you can possibly judge these things, it's so, it's so fuzzy and so blurry, uh, that there isn't a science of it. I mean, it's like the meaning of words. It's about as, it's about as, it's about as fuzzy as the meaning of words. And, uh, your, your normal can be a warm light, where someone's normal could be a, yeah, it could be a cooler. And you could relate the whole thing to a set of values that were... And one of the things you'd notice with Monet, is that his early things seem to me, the early paintings seem to me to be really absolutely bang on. They're really sort of tuned to the highest tonal range. Whereas, as he got older, you know, and the colour started to become a bit, this marvellous, sort of blotchy, abstract stuff took over, uh, it took over simply because the other stuff was lost, rather than a new vision. A bit, not to say that that's, that's got nothing to do with the value of the...

Sandra McGrath His later work, what did you say?

Arthur Boyd I said the later work, the where the marvellous colour took over, was really a falling off of this terribly highly tuned, uh, sort of tonal, by tonal I don't only mean just black and white, I mean a whole range of colour tones, uh, which was so, sort of, uh, you know, for my own eye, my vision, but so very finely tuned. Not detailed, but just it was a finely tuned, uh, accuracy of of what of what what was seeing what what I mean, I know because I've seen the actual, I've seen the landscape looking precisely like an early Monet, like with the with the with the trains and or the 1890s or 50s, or the and the boats, I've seen the, I've seen things like the the boats on, in Port Phillip Bay on a still day. I've seen them exactly like the early things that he did, the earliest things. And the thing he did of London, the earlier stuff. Um, and what was lost or, if not what was changed, was this, when the, when the vision got, just like the muscles and people run better when they're in their 20s and they play better tennis, these are the, the, you know, but you see the nice thing about, uh, about art or about painting, whatever you like to call it, is that, uh, you can, you can sort of move on to something else, and he moved on to something else, Monet. In the way he moved on to dealing with colour, and seeing all sorts of staggering things in a lily pond, and a joy to behold. So you don't really, it's got, it's really nothing to do with art, in a sense. I'd like to think it was. You know, I'd really like to think that there was a, that it was a bit like playing tennis. I'd love to think that, uh, but you could, you'd be very good at, at volleying, serving, someone could say match point or you've had a sport, it's, it's a chance.

Sandra McGrath Did you ever, did you ever imagine that that first painting would lead to some, at this stage anyway, some over 100-odd pictures of the same, you know?

Arthur Boyd No, I didn't. I had, um, I hoped that...

Sandra McGrath That was a one-off, I suppose, you could say.

Arthur Boyd It was a one-off, wasn't it? But then, see, when we left here, I think I said to Frank, well, if you could see another place, please, let us know. And he said, 'Oh, I don't know that I can go, you know.' And then he said, 'Oh, I don't know that I can go.' And then about, when we got back to London, about a fortnight later, he wrote and said, 'I had a most marvellous picnic on the river,' three or four miles down the river, Riversdale. Which you'll see tomorrow. And, uh, it was, it was lovely. It was a landscape as Riversdale. Which you'll see. I hope you'll see. Uh, so, um, yeah, and that's, and that's, and so we got more and more involved and interested. Hear that, Yvonne's asleep now.

Sandra McGrath Is she? Shut up now, dear. Riversdale's 100 hectares, is it, or something like that?

Arthur Boyd Eh, it's, well, I don't think it's much more. It's about, oh, it's about 140 acres.

Sandra McGrath And how would you describe it?

Arthur Boyd I'd describe it as a demi-paradise. Winter, autumn, spring. In the summer it's pretty hellish, because of the skier. It's a rut on the river. Uh, it's not really hellish, it's never hellish, except the year of the cicada was pretty hellish. You didn't have that, did you? For, for four months, they kept up, but these were not just normal Sydney cicadas. This was a, a plague that went day and night without stopping, and, uh, it was something I've never ever experienced before or since.

Sandra McGrath Did you paint one yet?

Arthur Boyd A cicada? Oh, that's a marvellous idea, a giant cicada. I must get one.

Sandra McGrath Was that the first summer you were there, when the cicadas were there?

Arthur Boyd Oh, no, no, no, we'd been, no, we'd been, we'd been there quite a few times. We had a summer here and a half year before.

Sandra McGrath Do you remember what year that was?

Arthur Boyd The one, when was the summer at Eerie Park?

Sandra McGrath No, with the cicadas.

Arthur Boyd Oh, the cicadas. What was the year of the cicadas? That's the cicada.

Sandra McGrath Was that in the summer?

Arthur Boyd '78.

Sandra McGrath '77, '78? Was that in the summer?

Arthur Boyd Yeah, summer, high, height of the summer. The place was swarming with relatives. Absolutely swarming with relatives. And, uh,

Sandra McGrath What happened then?

Arthur Boyd And, uh, Yvonne, Yvonne and I went to live in the studio, and, uh, left the house to the family. And, uh, we found that quite nice, except that we couldn't get any air.

Sandra McGrath Well, did the cicadas come into the house?

Arthur Boyd No, they made a terrible noise. It was, the scream was, was absolutely, deafening. If you think if you'd be, uh, living by an airport, it would be paradise. Still, I don't know why. Everyone said that it was, uh, was, it was very localised. It was only over sort of four, three or four square miles. ...and said, "Well, we must stick together." And I thought that was very touching, but it was a bit late by then.

Interviewer What was it like living in that terrible place for three weeks in a row?

Arthur Boyd Oh, it was heavenly! For three, what, here, you find?

Interviewer Yeah, for three weeks in the rain, but...

Arthur Boyd Oh, the rain, it was heaven. Marvellous! You could... you'd hear this constant thing, but not knowing, of course, that that had anything to do with water. Just hearing the noise on the roof, it's marvellous. Everything under the carpet.

Interviewer Yeah.

Arthur Boyd Can I get a doughnut?

Interviewer Yeah. You must have been cut off, could you get out?

Arthur Boyd Well, we... no, we couldn't get... no, we couldn't get to Bundanon, because the here at Condies was well over, and so... And it was up, it had come up in parts, so the road, the river actually... also the land, a landslide. But the road was cut off. I think... I don't know, when did the... when did the punt go? That was in 1978, wasn't it? '77, '76, '76.

Interviewer No, I think it was before, '74.

Arthur Boyd But, uh... So...

Interviewer Did the water come up over the fields over the irrigation?

Arthur Boyd You know, I don't think it... that one... but it did later, it did the next... Not, I don't think it came... it went away, but it did later the next... next time it flooded, we were... But it kept on... the bridge kept on getting uh taken out of um...

Interviewer Who was that?

Arthur Boyd And John Forbes kept on putting it back, like a...

Interviewer Cambewarra?

Arthur Boyd ...Nolan. I mean, he's a very nice fellow, but instead of putting in a ford, which is what I did and it's been there ever since, it seemed to be terribly obvious, but he put a a wooden bridge, which of course naturally got washed away every time, because the water couldn't get heated. And uh... you know, he... and uh... you don't put a bridge, if you want to get across a river you always go underneath it. I mean...

Interviewer Well, that's what a ford does. Some people do.

Arthur Boyd Do some people? You got a screen door.

Interviewer My relatives used to do that.

Arthur Boyd No, what I mean is you don't put a you don't put a a wooden structure across a raging torrent. Because uh I mean you can't cross it anyway if it's a raging torrent, whether if there's a flood. So you've got to wait till the flood goes down. So if you've got to wait till it goes down, you might as well...

Interviewer What was it like sitting up there watching the river rise around you? Because when you see where it is, and you see...

Arthur Boyd Oh, that was hell. I mean, it wasn't hell really. I kept on ringing up the Navy and saying, "Are we all right?" And uh they said uh, "Oh, don't worry. That's all right, Mr Boyd. It's quite all right." He said, "It's only rising at 10 feet an hour." "And you've got... you've got... you're you're at least 40 feet above the river." I said, "Well, that gives me eight hours!" And uh and so uh at 11:00 finally anyway I they did, I took his word and went to bed. But really uh...

Interviewer Well, what was that like? That really would have been... It would have been like being...

Arthur Boyd Oh, we were worried. I mean, because then we made a raft and uh got across uh uh before we got across the road, I'd put the car up over the other side of the river, uh over the creek, and we'd uh and so we could get out. Because once the river's risen to its... it takes a day or two. The water's calm in the in the valley, because it doesn't... As the river drops, it goes out fast. And uh but we had the lake. We had this vast lake. We marvelled. It made you want to fill the whole area up. It looked terrific. It looked absolutely marvellous. I was trying to think of ways of uh damming it, to keep it.

Interviewer What was it like watching it rise, though?

Arthur Boyd Uh well, that was... it was really... it was very frightening. It must have been frightening here. And I mean... And what was worse still, of course, would be to have all you know, all the cattle uh... I mean, there's nothing on the... There was no... There wasn't any worry, any real worry, in the sense. It wasn't much. Those sort of things, you see, in a way, those uh that... I took it very much for granted. I thought, "Oh, well, that's what the this is what the country does and it's going to do." And you go with it, in a way. You don't, you know, you can't... you can't start sort of mucking around with that sort of... The rumble, the width of the river was enormous, and the the sound of the rumble of the water coming down was uh something. Very... Very uh... But, uh, that was quite exciting, and uh, you know, the uh, the whole experience. Probably never... it may never happen again, because of the dam, the Tallowa Dam, the dam up... Because white trees tumbling down the river, you know, things as big as big as big as that, those bunya pines, sort of just like matchwood going down. And uh... Well, I hope I'm not actually too somnambulant, somnambulant. I think that uh I think that I'll tell you what I think that I would make, get Simon's uh sheets, and uh in case he wants to, because he may want to retire.

Interviewer Oh, okay.

Arthur Boyd And so, uh, well, would you just tell me where... Don't don't move. I'll be back in a minute. Just in case he wants to...

Interviewer We might Could you just show him over where he sleeps?

Arthur Boyd Yes, that's it. I had an an old um Bankcard, out of date Bankcard, and I took the, I cut off the the the number, I broke off the number, and I put it up on the ventilator going down the stairs to the restaurant.

Interviewer You planned the ventilator?

Arthur Boyd And I cleaned the ventilator. I mean, it was a perfectly good piece of uh, a wasted piece of uh, a found uh, you know, what are called, not trouvée, what do they call that?

Interviewer Objet trouvé.

Arthur Boyd It was a collage of a collage of sorts. Anyway, that's the newest, I thought.

Interviewer Ah, well.

Arthur Boyd And they all went, and the reason I did that, because they'd taken all the pictures out.

Interviewer When you got there?

Arthur Boyd Yeah, those damn things were all gone. I was terrified.

Interviewer It said It said on the Bankcard, it said, "Arthur Boyd," and something, "Expires"!

Arthur Boyd "Expires"!

Interviewer No, they're not going to expire, they're going to ask you to do it.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, it said "Expires". And I thought that was...

Interviewer That was good.

Arthur Boyd What I was trying, now, is that I was sad that it wasn't all on. At least I had uh Guernica was up.

Interviewer That's why I took the children then.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, that was the main, one of the main ones.

Interviewer I know, when I took the children in In November, I took the two teenage children,

Arthur Boyd Yeah.

Interviewer I knew that their concentration span would be very limited, so I picked out six pictures for them to see in the museum,

Arthur Boyd Yeah.

Interviewer whisked them quickly to see Guernica, the Matisse Red Room,

Arthur Boyd Well, see, that wasn't there.

Interviewer uh, uh, one of my old, old favourite paintings, which I don't like no more, but I loved when I was their age, which is the Rousseau Sleeping Gypsy.

Arthur Boyd Ah yes, see that was That used to be a great picture of all of my life.

Interviewer Mmm.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, I remember thinking that was pretty nice.

Interviewer And uh one of the Mondrians, and a David Smith, and then I said, "Okay, you've had it. Now we'll go and have some hot chocolate."

Arthur Boyd That's good, yeah. That's about right. That's enough. Uh, that's just enough for them.

Interviewer They weren't, they weren't glutted.

Arthur Boyd No, that's actually, that... I don't know whether I've seen it itself so well, but I think New York's an absolutely marvellous place. I'd love to live in New York.

Interviewer So would I. That's the only other place, out from Sydney or the country, I'd like to live.

Arthur Boyd I really thought that was marvellous. I think it was really great. I don't know where I'd like to live, but I mean, I couldn't bear to live in a run-down area, but I really thought it was a terrific place.

Interviewer I'd like to live on Fifth Avenue.

Arthur Boyd I went, and you know, I thought, "Why would you like to live there?"

Interviewer Certainly, yes.

Arthur Boyd You just don't want any, you know, you're near the road.

Interviewer Just just on the corner of Central Park. I mean,

Arthur Boyd Oh, no, it's really great, isn't it?

Interviewer Yes.

Arthur Boyd I don't know what it'd be like in summer, with the humidity.

Interviewer Well, that's where poor John Lennon lived, just on the corner.

Arthur Boyd We went when there was winter.

Interviewer Mmm.

Arthur Boyd It was not quite winter. It was, what was it, November? Gee, it must have been. It was December, wasn't it?

Interviewer Well, you'd remember, because it was very cold, there was snow on the ground.

Arthur Boyd It was very cold.

Interviewer And it was nice, there were blue skies and

Arthur Boyd It was nice to stay in a lovely pub.

Interviewer We walked all the way up Fifth Avenue to go to see the Metropolitan. Uh, for miles, it seemed to be, from our pub, which was the Algonquin.

Arthur Boyd Oh, that's where we stayed.

Interviewer We stayed at the... Did you?

Arthur Boyd We stayed at the Algonquin. Lovely, wasn't it?

Interviewer The only place I'd like to stay again, because we went to a couple of other places in New York

Arthur Boyd Oh, we went to...

Interviewer and they were not so good.

Arthur Boyd I, uh, oh, funny.

Interviewer All facades. But that was nice. It had a really, it was nice feeling about it. It's quite um... Don't you think it is a nice feeling?

Arthur Boyd Is a Is a terrible thing is a terrible firetrap.

Interviewer Is it? That could be it. I never thought of that.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, I kept on looking at things over there.

Interviewer When you go along those stairs to get down to that one and only lift, yes.

Arthur Boyd But you wouldn't be using a lift anyway in a fire, but...

Interviewer No, jumping out. Of course, I hadn't even thought of that. I have one of these aunts who thinks terror every time anything happens, uh and she said to me, I said, "We're staying at the Algonquin." She said, "It's the worst firetrap in New York."

Arthur Boyd That's great, isn't it? That's really good.

Interviewer She's right, though, when you come to think of it.

Arthur Boyd Anyway, I liked it. That was... I mean, that was my only uh that was a real treat, New York. It was going It was like going it was like uh, let's see, what it was like the first time, it was like uh going, it was better than going to the Uffizi. Uh it was like seeing uh I don't know, it was a it was a very, very different thing, you know. I had uh I mean, first, apart from painting, and of course the most great individual collection of paintings in the world, The Frick. The Frick. There's nothing, there's nothing, nothing better than The Frick, is there?

Interviewer No, that's the other museum I took the children to, because I felt that that gives you like home.

Arthur Boyd Did you take the kids to The Frick? Did they go there?

Interviewer Mmm.

Arthur Boyd Well, I know, I mean they should, but that's something that you What puzzles me is the place wasn't absolutely Today you get the art critic who looks back at photographs and pictures and says the guy was painting this or photographing this because of his need of something or other. Whereas the person who photographed it or painted it did it because it looked nice. Yeah, something like that. Something much simpler and less, less complex, yeah. And that would be, um, uh, you know, definitely the nice thing would be to be able to do that. And I know, and I think that would be one reason why there should be infinite possibilities, in a minor way, not interested in nice and stuff, but in a minor way there should be infinite possibilities in just still painting landscapes, untouched or... You see, I mean, you see the sun sitting there or the light on you there or the wall sitting there, all that stuff, you can you can turn that into... It could, I mean, you should be able to turn it into a marvellous painting. But whether or not you'd have to be, you'd have to be back in the 15th century, it seems to have been done best then, nearly.

Sandra McGrath There's some wonderful light falling on your shirt and the shawl. There's curlicues there, yeah, just... I mean you get the sparkling in the light there, and it's all pale light.

Interviewer Well, one style of light that I wanted to follow was...

Arthur Boyd Eh, but what was that? Well, it... ...was very much the sort of northern light, the backlit Yeah, from the side, yeah. Well, that... ...gives you all the shape of the, of the bones and the, the textures and lights up the collet, all the lines and... ...a very soft feel. Oh, you see, even things like this, sort of, well, if you, all that stuff being in shadow, which, go beneath the bar, so the bottom, like, when the, when the light ...came through the window, half from the back, as you said, and you get that. But see, all that... ...stuff down there, to paint all that down from whether there's, there's no light falling, and then, you know, then sort of ended up there as well. It's, you've really got to...

Sandra McGrath Tiring.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, it's not only, not only tiring, when you see it done properly, and when you see it done, I mean not properly, just when you see it done, it's just, eh, very few, few people...

Sandra McGrath It also takes someone sitting still like you two, yeah, in that same light, day after, night after night, in the same...

Arthur Boyd Yeah. Yeah, I wonder how Vermeer got on with these women, you know?

Sandra McGrath Yeah, dropped it! You son of a bitch! He didn't even have that whole thing of sort of the, the nude model to think about. He had really only... ...those pretty, close, bourgeois women. Sort of late and sexual...

Arthur Boyd He didn't have any, he didn't have any, he didn't have any distractions.

Sandra McGrath 'Cause I never could believe for one moment that the artist didn't... You know, they always say, "Oh, the model was just a human figure." I never...

Arthur Boyd Who said that? I've never said that! Rubbish! That's, that's merely a rumour. That's a rumour. Just a one, just a, a tree trunk or something. I say it was a... Say it, a, a, a human form or...

Sandra McGrath Well, it took me a week to go into my drawing class.

Arthur Boyd 'Cause they were going, eh? John tell me that, not for me. This was in 1938, he had a jockstrap. No, he didn't. Anyway, eh...

Sandra McGrath That wasn't cricket.

Arthur Boyd That was cricket. Anyway, the thing is that, eh, you, say it was, it was quite, anyway, it's certainly not just, eh, painting landscapes, you know.

Sandra McGrath We weren't talking about landscapes, dear.

Arthur Boyd No, we're talking about bodies in landscapes, or in, in interiors. And you can't, and you don't, I mean all the sensual painting that's been done, all the painting that's, that's thing, that is the painting that's... ...moving in either an intellectual, spiritual, physical, or sexual way, has all, it, it has the connections between the artist painting it. It's very, it's extremely delicate, and most unlikely that, that, that the painter could ever see it as a sort of, see the model as a piece of wood. I mean, Rembrandt's portrait of his mother, his mother wrinkled and that, but she's, she's no bit of wood, any more than Saskia was, posing as Danaë. She's pretty... Is it Hendrickje? No, who's posing as Danaë? Hendrickje, is it? Hendrickje Stoffels, was it, is it? Is it, it's not Saskia, is it? Yvonne?

Yvonne Boyd Can't tell you, what was the question?

Arthur Boyd I said, was it Hendrickje Stoffels posing as Danaë, or was it, it wasn't Saskia?

Yvonne Boyd I...

Arthur Boyd Anyway, whatever it was, but I think it was Hendrickje Stoffels. She was, what you'd call, very homely, and then she had the most marvellous, uh, sensual body, but... ...I'm not sure what this is connected with. How could this be connected with the Shoalhaven? Is it connected with a, with a, painting Yvonne in the Canberra landscape? That was doing, when I came down here first, to the, the river, I'd already been painting Yvonne in the landscape, in the Canberra landscape, nude. And, eh... ...it's, eh, I've never been able to show them properly, because every time I put them up, she pulls faces at them.

Yvonne Boyd Oh, rubbish, Arthur.

Arthur Boyd There's one, you left that one up there.

Yvonne Boyd No wonder, I, I said, "It doesn't seem to be helping you very much." I'm really nodding off, so do you mind if I go to bed? Would anyone excuse me? Would anyone excuse me?

Sandra McGrath You're sure, you're sure it's not because we're talking about you being nude in the landscape?

Yvonne Boyd There's nothing I'd like better than a sleep, to nod off altogether. It's really...

Arthur Boyd I'm thinking of all those flowers and mosquitoes you had.

Yvonne Boyd That's right!

Sandra McGrath Oh, well, anyhow, we'll see you tomorrow, and um... But you know, he does do something very nice for you, Yvonne, when he paints you in the landscape, because I know that pictures, yeah, yeah. He makes a little lean-to she can sit in. 'Cause I've seen them in the pictures.

Arthur Boyd Well, there you are.

Yvonne Boyd I've noticed that. I thought I was standing on stones in the creek.

Arthur Boyd No, I gave...

Sandra McGrath You sit very still.

Arthur Boyd I gave you a nice, clean, uh, piece of plastic.

Yvonne Boyd I'm having a, goodnight.

Arthur Boyd She's pretty good, pretty good at it.

Yvonne Boyd I've had a very short, uh, career, and it's all over.

Arthur Boyd Oh, you never know, it might...

Sandra McGrath Over, Yvonne?

Arthur Boyd ...it might start again.

Yvonne Boyd No, Yvonne, no...

Arthur Boyd Never over.

Sandra McGrath Nothing's ever over, Yvonne.

Yvonne Boyd Oh, it might start again.

Sandra McGrath Yeah.

Arthur Boyd Cheerio.

Yvonne Boyd Goodnight.

Sandra McGrath You'll have to give her a glass of wine beforehand.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, tomorrow. Right, so then that'll... ...be all right.

Sandra McGrath I don't think we've embarrassed her.

Arthur Boyd Not at all, no, no. She's, she's... Actually, I thought she'd gone to bed long before, you know, with the, with we... ...yeah. I think you've seen, seen sweeping the kitchen, having a new lease of life. I thought she'd gone to bed. Yeah, wouldn't you wonder? Anyway, uh, but that was to, the whole thing was, uh, got on to the freaking New York, I don't know how it got on to New York.

Sandra McGrath Well, no, you really haven't answered my question.

Arthur Boyd Which was?

Sandra McGrath How do you proceed? I like that word, "proceed".

Arthur Boyd Yeah.

Sandra McGrath Well, proceed.

Arthur Boyd You see, but I know that sounds pretty funny, but then you...

Sandra McGrath You're throwing children away. Well...

Arthur Boyd Well, what's wrong? I'm totally finished with, with wine now. No, but... Go on, I'm, I'm so glad you did.

Sandra McGrath No, no, no, no, but I was just saying that maybe Sam will get you another...

Arthur Boyd No, go on.

Sandra McGrath More? Um...

Arthur Boyd What was it?

Sandra McGrath Your own evolutionary attitude towards the landscape and painting of it.

Arthur Boyd Yeah. Um...

Sandra McGrath I mean, you must have been feeling fairly confident when you started floating roses and things around it.

Arthur Boyd Yeah, well, after a while, you see...

Sandra McGrath How did you see your second period, once you'd got lost at first in just not having seen anything like it?

Arthur Boyd Um, well, then you'd see, you, you'd start to think, uh, what, when you're away from it, uh, not, not what it is so much, but, uh, you'd start to, um, uh, think what way could you make some other comment other than the, the straightforward uh, landscape, and not comment, but, uh, treat it in a different way, uh, treat the actual landscape, uh, in a way that wasn't um, just purely topographical, and, um, and, and add something or make a point, other, even, even a political point, which I'd, I thought I was doing in a way with seeing with the bomb going off in the distance, uh, in the painting, and the landscape itself being untouched. I had a painting on the wall with a, with an, with an, sort of mushroom-shaped atom bomb thing in the distance, but I had the same painting outside the doorway without, you know, with just sort of pristine uh, self, you know, just a meandering river and no disturbance. sing a song, the most marvellous Schubert song to you, and you have to write something about it, you might find it gets to actually think, and and think about it properly, you might have to turn off the music. And in a way that's what happens with the landscape. When you're removed from it, and your memory, if your memory's means anything at all, and a few notes that you might have, in a way of plein air pictures or sketches, then you can, in a way you're free, whereas you're you're you're never are, in a way, you know, when you're buried in it.

Sandra McGrath It's infuriating to think that you could say in close proximity to it.

Arthur Boyd Yes. Oh, that's that's sort of that's not that's not my street. Um, yeah, but um, when you're when you're anyway, whatever you call it, when you're very close to it, and it's constantly, it's like the cicadas.

Sandra McGrath When you're very close to it, what?

Arthur Boyd It's, I'm saying it's like the the cicadas playing in your ears. I mean, you really... I mean, to going out, I mean, it's absolutely ludicrous in a way, going into a studio to paint at all, when you're when you're here. I mean, you should be in a in a in a sense, you feel I feel guilty every time I go into the studio, I feel I should be I should be lumbering and carting the paints out into the stuff itself, no matter how big the picture is, or how hard it is, or how hot it is, or how many insects there are, or how late it is. I mean, you you should be out, you know, in it, swamped by it. But then when that happens, I mean you only need you only need a little bit of that, you know, sort of to set you off. But you...